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McCain's military record........

Discussion in 'Elections & Political Parties' started by Libsmasher, Jun 10, 2008.

  1. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    ......documented.

    He did well on its entrance exams at the naval academy.
    (Timberg, An American Odyssey, pp. 33–34.)

    In his final year, he managed the battalion boxing team to a brigade championship.
    (ibid)

    McCain's classmates were impressed by his cramming abilities on mathematics, science, and engineering courses and thought his low grades were by inclination and not ability.
    (Nowicki, Dan & Muller, Bill. "John McCain Report: At the Naval Academy", The Arizona Republic, 2007-03-01. Retrieved on 2007-11-10.)

    His IQ is 133.
    (Time, 2008-01-23. )

    He participated in the blockade of cuba as a pilot on the carrier Enterprise, during the cuban missle crisis.
    (Freeman, Gregory A. (2002). Sailors to the End: The Deadly Fire on the USS Forrestal and the Heroes Who Fought It. HarperCollins. ISBN 0060936908. p. 25. )

    During the vietnam war, he requested a combat assignment.
    (Timberg, An American Odyssey, pp. 70–71.)

    In 1967, he joined the massive bombarment campaign over north vietnam called Rolling Thunder, while a pilot on the Forrestal.
    (Des Moines Register. Retrieved on 2007-11-08.)

    He joined the alpha strikes flown from Forrestal which were against specific, pre-selected targets such as arms depots, factories, and bridges.[66] They were quite dangerous, due to the strength of the North Vietnamese air defenses, which used Soviet-designed and -supplied surface-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft artillery, and MiG jet interceptors.
    (Karaagac, John (2000). John McCain: An Essay in Military and Political History.)

    McCain was in his plane aboard the Forrestal when a rocket accidentally was fired and hit his plane. He escaped with difficulty and was hit in the legs and chest by bomb fragments while trying to rescue another pilot.
    (USS Forrestal (CV-59). Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships)

    McCain volunteered for another squadron abouard the USS Oriskany, the "Saints", who had a reputation for aggressive, daring attacks, but paid the price as 1/3 of them were killed or captured.
    (McCain, Faith of My Fathers, p. 182.)

    McCain was be awarded a Navy Commendation Medal for leading his air section through heavy enemy fire during an October 18 raid on the Lac Trai shipyard in Haiphong.
    (John McCain's Navy Records: Citations. United States Navy.)

    On October 25, McCain's successful attack on the Phuc Yen airfield north of Hanoi against a barrage of anti-aircraft and surface-to-air missile fire would garner him the Bronze Star Medal.
    (ibid)

    On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane attack against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi[83][84] that had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids.[81] As he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk told him he was in danger from enemy fire.[85] He held his dive until he released his bombs at about 3,500 feet (1,000 meters)[86] (he would be awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for this day.
    (ibid)
     
  2. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    McCain's being shot down and imprisonment deserves detail:

    McCain's plane went into a vertical inverted spin.[87] Bailing out upside down at high speed,[88] the force of the ejection fractured McCain's right arm in three places, his left arm, and his right leg, and knocked him unconscious.[88] McCain nearly drowned after his parachute dropped him into Trúc Bạch Lake in Hanoi.[83] Some Vietnamese pulled him ashore.[85] After he regained consciousness, a mob gathered around, spat on him, kicked him, and stripped him of his clothes; others crushed his left shoulder with the butt of a rifle and bayoneted him in his left foot and abdominal area.[88][85] He was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton" by American POWs.[89]

    McCain reached Hoa Lo in the worst physical shape of any prisoner during the war.[89] His captors refused to give him medical care unless he gave them military information; they beat and interrogated him, but McCain only offered his name, rank, serial number, and date of birth[90][91] (all that is required under the Geneva Conventions). Soon thinking he was near death, McCain said he would give them more information if taken to the hospital,[90] hoping he could then put them off once he was treated.[92] A prison doctor came and said it was too late, as McCain was about to die anyway.[90] Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care[90] — calling him "the crown prince"[89] — and announce his capture. At this point, two days after McCain's plane went down, that event and his status as a POW made the front pages of The New York Times[73] and The Washington Post.[93] Interrogation and beatings resumed in the hospital; McCain gave his ship's name, squadron's name, and the attack's intended target[94] (disclosing this information was in violation of the U.S. Code of Conduct, which McCain later wrote he regretted, although he saw the information as being of no practical use to the North Vietnamese).[95] Further coerced to give future targets, he named cities that had already been bombed, and responding to demands for the names of his squadron members, he supplied instead the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line.[94][96]

    McCain spent six weeks in the hospital,[83] receiving marginal care in a dirty, wet environment.[97] A prolonged attempt to set the fractures on his right arm, done without anesthetic, was unsuccessful;[98] he received an operation on his broken leg but no treatment for his broken left arm.[99] He was temporarily taken to a clean room and interviewed by a French television reporter whose report was carried months later on CBS.[100] McCain was observed by a variety of North Vietnamese, including Defense Minister and Army commander-in-chief General Vo Nguyen Giap.[101] Many of the North Vietnamese observers assumed that McCain must be part of America's political-military-economic elite.[102] Now having lost fifty pounds (twenty-three kilograms), in a chest cast, covered in grime and eyes full of fever, and with his hair turned white,[83] in December 1967 McCain was sent to a prisoner-of-war camp on the outskirts of Hanoi nicknamed "the Plantation".[103] He was placed in a cell with two other Americans (one was George "Bud" Day, an Air Force pilot and future Medal of Honor recipient), who did not expect him to live a week.[104] They nursed McCain and kept him alive;[101] Day would later remember that McCain had "a fantastic will to live."[105]

    In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[106] Unknown to the POWs, in May 1968, Jack McCain was named Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command (CINCPAC) effective in July, stationed in Honolulu and commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.[107][3] John McCain was soon offered a chance to return home early.[108] The North Vietnamese wanted a worldwide propaganda coup by appearing merciful,[109] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[108] McCain turned down the offer of release, due to the POWs' "first in, first out" interpretation of the U.S. Code of Conduct:[110] he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[83][111] McCain's refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese senior negotiator Le Duc Tho to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman, during the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.[112]

    In August 1968, a program of vigorous torture methods began on McCain.[113] The North Vietnamese used rope bindings to put him into prolonged, painful positions and severely beat him every two hours, all at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[113][83] Teeth and bones were broken again, as was McCain's spirit; the beginning of a suicide attempt was stopped by guards.[83] After four days of this, McCain signed and taped[114] an anti-American propaganda "confession" that said, in part, "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life, thanks to the doctors."[113][83] He used stilted Communist jargon and ungrammatical language to signal that the statement was forced.[96] He felt then and always that he had dishonored his country, his family, his comrades and himself by his statement,[115] but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[87] His injuries to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head.[23] Two weeks later his captors tried to force him to sign a second statement; his will to resist restored, he refused.[113] He sometimes received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal;[116] the sustained mistreatment went on for over a year.[105] His boxing experience from his Naval Academy days helped him withstand the battering,[34] and the North Vietnamese were never able to break him again.[113]

    Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements,[117][118] with many enduring even worse treatment than McCain.[119] Under extreme duress, virtually all the POWs eventually yielded something to their captors.[120][117] On one occasion, a guard surreptitiously loosened McCain's painful rope bindings for a night; when, months later, the guard later saw McCain on Christmas Day, he stood next to McCain and silently drew a cross in the dirt with his foot.[121] In October 1968, McCain's isolation was partly relieved when Ernest C. Brace was placed in the cell next to him;[122] he taught Brace the prisoners' tap code method of communication.[123] On Christmas Eve 1968, a church service for the POWs was staged for photographers and film cameras; McCain defied North Vietnamese instructions to be quiet, speaking out details of his treatment then shouting "Fu-u-u-u-ck you, you son of a *****!" and giving the finger whenever a camera was pointed at him.[124] McCain refused to meet with various anti-Vietnam War peace groups coming to Hanoi,[125] such as those led by David Dellinger, Tom Hayden, and Rennie Davis, not wanting to give either them or the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory based on his connection to his father.[87] McCain was still badly hobbled by his injuries, earning the nickname "Crip" among the other POWs,[126][127] but despite his physical condition, continued beatings and isolation, he was one of the key players in the Plantation's resistance efforts.[128]
     
  3. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    In May 1969, U.S. Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird began publicly questioning North Vietnamese treatment of U.S. prisoners.[129] On June 5, 1969, a United Press International report described a Radio Hanoi broadcast that denied any such mistreatment.[129] The broadcast excerpted from McCain's forced "confession" of a year before, including a statement where he said he had bombed "cities, towns and villages" and had received "very good medical treatment" as a prisoner.[129][130] In late 1969, treatment of McCain and the other POWs suddenly improved.[131][132] North Vietnamese ruler Ho Chi Minh had died the previous month, causing a possible change in policy towards POWs.[131] A badly beaten and weakened POW who had been released that summer disclosed to the world press the conditions to which they were being subjected,[87] and the National League of Families of American Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia, including McCain's brother Joe, heightened awareness of the POWs' plight.[133] In December 1969, McCain was transferred back to the Hoa Lo "Hanoi Hilton";[134] his solitary confinement ended in March 1970.[135] When the prisoners talked about what they wanted to do once they got out, McCain said he wanted to become President.[56] McCain consented to a January 1970 interview outside Hoa Lo with Spanish-born, Cuban psychologist Fernando Barral, that was published in the official Cuban newspaper Granma.[136] In it, McCain talked about his life and expressed no remorse for his actions in bombing North Vietnam,[136] and Barral proclaimed him "an insensitive individual without human depth."[137] The POWs issued an edict forbidding any further such interviews,[136] and despite pressure McCain subsequently refused to see any anti-war groups or journalists sympathetic to the North Vietnamese regime.[137]

    McCain and other prisoners were moved around to different camps at times, but conditions over the next several years were generally more tolerable than they had been before.[87] Unbeknownst to them, each year that Jack McCain was CINCPAC, he paid a Christmastime visit to the American troops in South Vietnam serving closest to the DMZ; he would stand alone and look north, to be as close to his son as he could get.[138] By 1971, some 30–50 percent of the POWs had become disillusioned about the war and less reluctant to make propaganda statements for the North Vietnamese.[120] McCain was not among them; he participated in a defiant church service[139] and lead an effort to only write letters home that portrayed the camp in a negative light;[140] he spent much of the year in a camp reserved for "bad attitude" cases.[120] Back at the "Hanoi Hilton" from November 1971 onward,[141] McCain and the other POWs cheered the resumed bombing of the north starting in April 1972, whose targets included the Hanoi area and whose daily orders were issued by Jack McCain, knowing his son was in the vicinity.[142] Jack McCain's tour as CINCPAC ended in September 1972,[143] despite his desire to have it extended so he could see the war to its conclusion.[138] The POWs cheered even more during the intense "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972, when Hanoi was subjected for the first time to repeated B-52 raids.[142] Although its explosions lit the night sky and shook the walls of the camp, the POWs saw it as a forceful measure to compel North Vietnam to finally come to terms.[142]

    Altogether, McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. The Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending direct U.S. involvement in the war, but the Operation Homecoming arrangements for POWs took longer.[144] McCain was finally released from captivity on March 14, 1973,[145] having been a POW for almost an extra five years due to his refusal to accept the out-of-sequence repatriation offer. For his actions as a POW, McCain would be awarded the Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, three more instances of the Bronze Star, another instance of the Navy Commendation Medal, and the Purple Heart.

    (ibid)


    NOW - WHAT DID OBAMA DO AT EQUIVALENT STAGES IN HIS LIFE???

    HE "ORGANIZED" IN THE GHETTO.
     
  4. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure everyone agrees he had an honorable Military history. He is sure no John Freaking Kerry.

    It's just hard to "want" to vote for him because he is so darn liberal.... I feel like our choices are a moderate liberal and a radical liberal. I guess the moderate is better but I am with Glenn Beck, if we don’t let ourselves crash, a decent person wont gravitate to the top next time.

    Without that miserable excuse for a president Jimmy Carter (my x Hero) we would never have gotten Ronald Reagan.... My Hero.

    So maybe its better to let Obama get it, drive it in the ground and then someone really good, really inspiring will float to the top.....Maybe Bobby Gendel??


    Libsmasher, I truly admire your attemps to defend McCain. I think its really nice of you. But doesnt it ever get you down that he has this really large liberal streak running down his back side?
     
  5. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    I can beat you, I can post Obama's life story in 1 page and add a link!

    1979 Graduated from high school

    1980 & 1981 Studied at Occidental College

    1982 transferred to Columbia, majored in political science & international relations.

    1983 Graduated from Columbia

    1983-1985 worked at Business Int. Corporation & N.Y. Public Interest Research Group

    1985 moved to Chicago to take a job as a community organizer

    1988 entered Harvard Law School

    1991Graduated from Harvard & first black President, Harvard Law Review

    1992 as a Community Organizer, he Led Chicago's Project Vote! push. This effort resulted in a record number of voter registrations, over 600,000 in Chicago.

    1993-2004 Visiting Law and Government Fellow, then senior Lecturer, in Constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School (worked this job part time while a State Senator.)

    1996-2004 Illinois Senate Senator

    Break down of State Senate Job. Assumed office January of 1997 and left to campaign for US Senate seat in January

    of 03 = 6 working years in Illinois State Senate.



    January 4th 2005 to present US Junior Senator from Illinois. Feb 11th 2007 (2 years and 1 month or 442 working days) after becoming a United States Senator, he announced his candidacy for the United States Presidency. Now he (like the other Senators running) goes back only for key votes. In that 2 years here are the committees he has sat on.



    Member, Senate Foreign Relations Committee
    Member, Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
    Member, Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs


    Committee’s he joined after Launching his candidacy for US President.

    Dec 29th 07 to present. Chairman, Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs. But Since his stewardship he has convened no policy hearings. Since he has been chairman he has been to busy running for President.

    Books he has written Dreams from My Father and The Audacity of Hope

    Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS on experience for running for President, said in 2004 before he announced his candidacy for President of the United States of America.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLDrcF6Fg0o&feature=related


    Obama on experience in his own words

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkTg4NmV0nU
     
  6. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    This is mostly in response to Bunz reducing his military service to "crashing planes", and vilely suggesting he got medals because is father was an admiral, and other such despicable attacks on his military service.

    As to "liberal", think of the "liberal" extremism you'll get if Obama gets elected - it would make Teddy Kennedy look like Attilla the Hun.
     
  7. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

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    I understand Obama would make things so much worse, and it might not be possible to fix the damage he does, but it’s just so hard to vote for McCain. I hate McCain Feingold, I hate his immigration stand, I hate that he pretends he doesn’t know Bush. I think Bush made mistakes, but he is a genuinely good person. And McCain keeps poking conservatives in the eye, and my eye’s hurts, BOTH OF THEM!

    But.....I hope you keep fighting the good fight. You are the only one here who consistently defends McCain and even though he bugs me, he is well worth defending.


    :)
     
  8. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    could have been like Reagan...who was a actor?

    Military experience is nice, but does flying a Airplane show you how to deal with the leaders of Iran? or Iraq? or Russia? or anything the Pres will do? So you can shoot a M-16...when was the last President to need to do that?

    its nice, and I give it points, but great leaders don't have to come from the army. And some of the same people who talked about McCain's Service are the same ones who *****ed about Kerry's purple hearts. And those people I have no respect for.

    But I guess Obama could have been a actor instead...wait that was someone else.....
     
  9. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    As I am a conservative, you can grasp that McCain is far from my first choice. But the alternative in 2008 potends at least four years of destruction of american society, and at a time when we can ill afford it.
     
  10. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    It certainly shows McCain had a rough time of it but does ones war record equip someone with the ability to be President?
     
  11. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    I thought you didn't like Timberg? Stating in another thread " Timberg is a lib who has made charges for which no proof is offered." Now you cite him as a source? What a hypocrite. (proof provided in HOP link)

    http://houseofpolitics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3080#3

    Anyway, I notice the way you just skip over McCain's time at the Naval Academy.

    Small wonder, John McCain finished in the bottom 1% of his class at the Academy. There can be little doubt he would never have been accepted had his father not been an Admiral.

    On the other hand, Obama graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law school.

    Here is some more interesting information about McCain's war record that you missed:

    There's much more on John McCain in the link provided below. Who to believe is up to you, but I find it hard to fathom that all this information about McCain is just made up.

    http://www.dailypaul.com/node/51492
     
  12. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    The issue isn't his "rough time", (and lots of appeasers try to scope his service down as merely that) but rather the characteristics revealed by his WHOLE military service

    McCain's record shows

    - courage
    - intelligence
    - steadfastness
    - ability to think in a crisis
    - ability to deal with the real world as it is
    - patriotism

    Relevent to president, which in the US is also commander of the military?

    I think so.
     
  13. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    I lend more credence to easily verifiable FACTUAL material which is a matter of record such as test scores, as opposed to unproven scurilous rumors. All cleared up for you? :)

    You're just blowing away facts - he did WELL on his entrance exams. And it is entrance exams, not grades you make while you are there, that gets you in. :rolleyes: Your "father was an admiral" explanation remains unconvincing. The near bottom of the class ranking had to do with his attitude toward tests, nothing more. When it came to showing that he could do what he was trained for - a combat pilot - he showed beyond question that he was EXCELLENT - and THAT is a matter of record. Deal with it.

    Ooooooo - I'm impressed. Obama cruised through life on the free ride of "affirmative action", and almost everybody gets honors at harvard. What do we need in a president? A LAWYER, anyone can see that. :D


    None of this is documented, there are no credible references, no names of POWs to back it up, and it flatly contradicts the official naval record. Standard leftwing hit job, nothing more.
     
  14. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    sounds like a bunch of crying swift boaters to me.
     
  15. Jeugenen

    Jeugenen New Member

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    MC-CAIN’S LAST DATE WITH THE REAGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY


    McCain’s ideological support, like Bush’s, comes from Podhoretz Neo-Cons and Leiberman Neo-Libs, not Reagan Conservatives nor Kennedy Liberals. These supporters have the same Neo-Marxist roots, which originated over 60 years ago, when millions of defeated Marxist immigrants from Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were admitted by America, as desperate persecuted refugees; after all of the European nations refused to take them.


    By the McCarthy Era, many of these pathetic refugees had gotten good government positions; and, by way of showing their deep gratitude to the American People, they systematically corrupted the government and endangered national security, by working as spies for Marxist Russia. The most notorious of these spies, the Rosenbergs, were executed for treason. This had the intended beneficial effect of stopping most of the dangerous spying; but it had the unintended consequence of causing these Marxist refugees to seek social and economic power by pretentiously assimilating into the Conservative Republican and Liberal Democrat parties; where they quickly mutated into the Neo-Conservatives and Neo-Liberals, with insidious ideological opposition to traditional Christian culture and Constitutional principles. The result of the subversive influence by these virulent Crypto-Neo-Marxists in the government, schools, news media and entertainment media was the increasingly intolerably cultural degeneration that has led up to the American Cultural War.


    Podhoretz Neo-Con and Leiberman Neo-Lib ideology notoriously instills subversive contempt for patriotism, defensive war, historical accuracy, Christian culture, and Constitutional rule, United Nations resolutions, and Conservative Reagan Republicans and Liberal Kennedy Democrats.


    All of this contempt is transparently motivated by a dogmatic belief in gaining an advantage by insubordination to the practices of national religious and governmental traditions, which grant the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These Crypto-Neo-Marxists, like their failed Marxists predecessors, imagine that they can somehow create their own new superior civilization, if they first destroy the traditional allegiance to the nuclear family, Christianity, nationalism, and the Constitution.


    Israel, which these Marxists refugees have had all to themselves for 60 years, to do their utopian social engineering, in their own artificially created state, is notoriously poorly governed and heavily subsidized by the Diaspora; and the People of Israel, once the most widely pitied in the World, have come to justly earn the distinction of now being the most universally despised, condemned, and threatened with annihilation.


    In this crucial 2008 presidential battle of the American Cultural War shall the Reagan Conservatives and the Kennedy Liberals finally combine forces against these desperately united Podhoretz Neo-Cons and Leiberman Neo-Libs supporting Insane McCain; or shall they continue to suffer ideological corruption of their Republican and Democrat parties, subversion of their traditional Christian culture and Constitutional rule, pernicious governmental strife, and the illegal and un-patriotic sacrifice of the wealth and blood of the American People to sole benefit of Israel?


    With Leiberman Neo-Lib Princess Hillary burnt at stake by the Kennedy Liberal Democratic Party, shall Podhoretz Neo-Con McCain have his final date for the presidency, or for the Reagan Conservative Republican firing squad?


    Google: “Mearsheimer Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy”; “Evans Blacklisted by History: Untold Story of Joe McCarthy”; “Wall Street Journal McCain-Feingold”; Stricherz Why the Democrats are Blue; “Human Events Ron Paul Interview”; McClelland "What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington's Culture of Deception"; McCain Keating Five; Abramoff Israel McCain.
     
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