Middle Class Tax Increase

how about you guys/lady, put your money where your mouth is? A wager?

I will give you 6 months, and it must be clear what taxes we are taking about.

Right now it is up in the air if the economy can survive his planned tax cuts and proposed spending. Even Obama will admit to you that he might leave the tax rates as they are until the economy turns around.

It will depends on what the scenarios look like when he comes in, the mood on the Hill, and what his advisers can convince him of.
 
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how about you guys/lady, put your money where your mouth is? A wager?

I will give you 6 months, and it must be clear what taxes we are taking about.

How do I get my money out of you ?

:)


He wants his programs, peope who voted for him did so because of programs
most of those people wont care if they have a tax increase because they are big government people who some how think programs are more important than lower taxes.

I can not see him resisting to raise the taxes with of course blaming Bush and his followers will buy it hook, line and sinker and they will be happy because of programs.

income tax might be a small sum at first and he will justify it by saying its only pennys per person but enough to do x y or z

gas taxes will get raised I bet

and all the other little ones that he will say wont hit most americans

death tax, capitol gains tax, exc exc


if he really wanted to let a person pay less taxes he would take less not offer deductions :)
 
If you will allow me to, let me suggest something different. Instead of laissez faire capitalism or over regulations how about we have an abundance of the right kind of regulations and none of the wrong kind. This is where a principle can help us to decide which is which. If the law stops someone from hurting somone then let's have it. Does the nasty industrialist want to hire children to work 12 hours per day? Then let's regulate that. Does someone want to kill another? Regulate that. Does a politicians want to stop the largest airline in the country from going bankrupt? The airline that would never have been the largest in the first place if it had not been propped up by government regulation in the first place? NO WAY. We don't need that kind of regulation.
I think we have a large amount of agreement here. But your more conservative friends will most likely disagree with you. It's sad to see the US auto companies going out the way TV sets went a few decades ago, but management and unions were foolish in many ways. It's pointless for the US government to give a few aspirins to someone suffering cardiac arrest.
 
I'm thinking of a fellow grad student who lived in public housing near Wayne State in Detroit. His fellow tenants would use elevators as bathrooms, punch holes in the hallway walls for the fun of it, and tear down anything that was the slightest bit movable, even if it had no value to them. That population is growing bigger.

The inflation-adjusted median income is shrinking, while the top 1% is very rapidly growing. As far as people working hard for small wages, reducing taxes will help, but will exacerbate the debt. If we ax out social programs to cut the budget, we ax out them too. It is a real dilemma that will eventually affect all classes.

I agree completely, and have seen the same first hand. That's why we need to end public housing. Why do you think property values drop instantly when Section 8 Housing moves into the area? We need to stop these programs.

This is the other classic difference between liberal and conservative views.

You say that if we cancel these programs we'll be hurting those people. We say, the reason those people are in those situations is because of those programs.

I'll never forget watching a reporter in the late 90s ask this lady who had 3 kids and was on welfare, about welfare reform that had just passed congress. The reporter asked the lady about how she thought it would be since she had to get a job. The lady responded that oh, things would be much much better now, that she'd have more money and be able to support her children better.

The reporter, befuddled asked "well, why then didn't you do this sooner?". She replied that... until now, she didn't have to!

Point is this: As long as people are able to live in government funded poverty, they have no reason to put the effort into getting out of their situation. People are inherently lazy. But, when you take away the economic incentive to remaining poor, government checks for doing nothing, people don't just roll over and die... they get up and do what they need to do to survive.

Way back in high school, I worked at a grocery store, and was shocked by the number of college students that walked in and paid for food with food stamps, but then bought cases of beer with cash. Why don't they buy their own food? Because they don't have to.

I even remember a specific woman who came in and looked like trash. I figured this was one case of food stamps going to the right person. I watched in shocked anger as she climbed into a new model Cadillac. She has the money to purchase and fuel a luxury liner, but not for bread and milk?
 
That's why we need to end public housing. Why do you think property values drop instantly when Section 8 Housing moves into the area? We need to stop these programs.

This is the other classic difference between liberal and conservative views.

You say that if we cancel these programs we'll be hurting those people. We say, the reason those people are in those situations is because of those programs.

I wasn't just focusing on public housing so much as the state of mind in the inner-cities. Low regard for property there also happens in rentals. I rented a house once to a stream of different people at the bottom of the bucket, and believe me it wasn't easy. I'm all for privatization in low cost housing in inner-cities. Do you think it is economical enough for the developer.. Will tenants still indiscriminately trash their surroundings? Of course we all heard of slum lords. In the case of housing, I think the difference in our thinking is not so much liberal/conservative, but it's more that you have more optimism in lifting the spirit of the ghetto minds than I do.
I'll never forget watching a reporter in the late 90s ask this lady who had 3 kids and was on welfare, about welfare reform that had just passed congress. The reporter asked the lady about how she thought it would be since she had to get a job. The lady responded that oh, things would be much much better now, that she'd have more money and be able to support her children better.

The reporter, befuddled asked "well, why then didn't you do this sooner?". She replied that... until now, she didn't have to!

Point is this: As long as people are able to live in government funded poverty, they have no reason to put the effort into getting out of their situation. People are inherently lazy. But, when you take away the economic incentive to remaining poor, government checks for doing nothing, people don't just roll over and die... they get up and do what they need to do to survive.

Way back in high school, I worked at a grocery store, and was shocked by the number of college students that walked in and paid for food with food stamps, but then bought cases of beer with cash. Why don't they buy their own food? Because they don't have to.

I even remember a specific woman who came in and looked like trash. I figured this was one case of food stamps going to the right person. I watched in shocked anger as she climbed into a new model Cadillac. She has the money to purchase and fuel a luxury liner, but not for bread and milk?
College students etc. are a different problem - just the usual something-for-nothing attitude. It still drains the government. I whole-heartedly agree with you in principle as far as welfare and housing. These programs would have to be withdrawn slowly, intelligently and creatively and replaced by something else the same way.

I think the real solution lies one step lower than housing and welfare: family and school. Schools are possible to improve perhaps with more money to buy better teachers and facilities, but the family is not. Cultures are very hard to change, (as we see in the MidEast) As the years pass, the American ghetto mind is becoming more firmly entrenched in the progeny.

A fellow physics post-doc taught classes outside of the school system through some organization who's name I forgot. He started out the class for teens by saying "This class will teach you how to wire tap a telephone and how to build an atomic bomb." The students were all eager, but first he had to explain principles of electronics and the nature of the atom. The students learned a lot, but he never got around to the curricula he promised at the beginning.

There are lots of small success stories, but the country needs a big one. My feeling is that the current welfare system is make-do to prevent a massive upheaval of some sort. It is hard to see how any institution - governmental or private will be able to exhibit the wisdom to make the necessary changes. Liberals seem content to leave the situation as is. It is up to conservatives to come up with a viable alternative. You have admirably done your share, but it seems that some conservatives here have the attitude "f*** them". Do you have a viable solution for inner-cities to replace the one that's there?
 
Middle calss tax increase
Let's take a vote as to how many days obama will be in office before he increases the taxes for the middle class!
I give it 2 months...maybe less.
He'll do it very nicely of course.
Bend over America!!!

MSNBC reported joke as news
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/11/13/msnbc-retracts-false-palin-story-duped/
REALLLLLLLLLLY - it's time to clear Olbermann and the Bot clown troupe out and bring in newsmen to report the news.

No gay marriges
In the aftermath of the recent election, I noticed how the lib video media under-reported this - no "gay marriage" now in California AND florida and arizona.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/us/politics/06marriage.html
Libs and the gay lobby of course will of course not settle for this. Libs and socialists have always supported vox populi AS LONG AS they make the "correct" choice. When they don't, time to look up a lib judge who will make his own non-democratic law, from the bench.

89% of muslims voted obama

Gushing over Obama
... by a lib media reporter.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-...cs-terry-moran-gushes-over-obama-cool-display
This guy was almost having an orgasm.
Geez, i just don't get this bot hypnosis. I REALLY don't get it. I look at The One and see a clueless, empty suit, skinny black guy with big ears. What the hell makes people gush???

Obama may scape (?) campaing (?) audit
Unfreaking believable!!!! This guy is going to get away with getting millions of dollars funded from terrorists for his campaing and we're just going to let him get away with that.....
John McCain kepts his word of receiving public funding for his campaing and he gets the shaft for keeping his word and not flip flopping about the issue....

This is by far the most laughable one yet:

Wall street investors are racist
Ever since president elect Obama won, the stock market has taken a huge plunge. The market was starting to give signs of recovery prior to election day, but after that day the market has gone down.
It must be because all the investors are racists and don't like Obama right???
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2008/11/wall_street_investors_ponder_o.html

Now take a look at this one. What names are missing within this well thought out, equally debated thread?

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5935



Do you ever wonder why, when one googles "political forums", Houseofpolitics doesn't even show up until the THIRD page?

It reminds me of Jonestown

Now I understand why I don't post here any longer........sigh....

Will this thread now be moved and locked as well?

Let the flames begin....
 
Low regard for property there also happens in rentals. I rented a house once to a stream of different people at the bottom of the bucket, and believe me it wasn't easy. I'm all for privatization in low cost housing in inner-cities. Do you think it is economical enough for the developer.. Will tenants still indiscriminately trash their surroundings? Of course we all heard of slum lords.

No, of course it's not economical. If it was economical, then public housing wouldn't be subsidized. It would be gaining money, not requiring it. Tenants will trash their surroundings for as long as it doesn't cost them much to do so. In apartments where fines and fees are levied against tenants, they normally don't have problems like this. Under public housing where the government pays for the cost of the place no matter how it is treated, and the tenants are never fined for damage, there is no reason for them to reign in destructive behavior.

When I lived in an apartment, the guy next door was doing something that was damaging the fence in front, and his kids left their junk all over the place. The management started fining him for the cost of replacing the fence, and the trashing of the area by his kids. Amazingly, he stopped damaging the fence, and his kids suddenly started cleaning up after themselves.

However, that was not the case just a block down the road at the Section 8 apartments. The management which got paid the same by the tax payers, had no reason to deal with damaged property which would be covered by government subsidies, nor dealt with the trashing of the entire area.

The solution is simply to eliminate government funded housing. Yes that means the rent prices will rise. But I believe that just like the welfare lady I mentioned before, that people will not just roll over and die. They will do what is required to survive, either by finding a better job, taking a second job, finding a roommate, or cutting expenses to pay for their apartment.

I think the real solution lies one step lower than housing and welfare: family and school. Schools are possible to improve perhaps with more money to buy better teachers and facilities, but the family is not. Cultures are very hard to change, (as we see in the MidEast) As the years pass, the American ghetto mind is becoming more firmly entrenched in the progeny.

Eliminate no-fault divorce. Stop the break down of family values. Eliminate programs that make it economical to not be married. Nothing is a better more accurate indicator of future poverty, drugs, abuse, and crime, than divorce and children growing up in a single parent, or broken home.

I think schools should be privatized too, or completely overhauled with the elimination of teachers unions and federal controls. In Asian countries, they spend a fraction what we do on students, and end up with far better results. Increasing funding will not help in the same way it hasn't for the past 50 years.

There are lots of small success stories, but the country needs a big one. My feeling is that the current welfare system is make-do to prevent a massive upheaval of some sort. It is hard to see how any institution - governmental or private will be able to exhibit the wisdom to make the necessary changes. Liberals seem content to leave the situation as is. It is up to conservatives to come up with a viable alternative. You have admirably done your share, but it seems that some conservatives here have the attitude "f*** them". Do you have a viable solution for inner-cities to replace the one that's there?

Not in the sense of a massive fix-all solution, no. We need to end the economic incentives to being poor. That sounds illogical, but in reality, it's very true. We have made being poor, profitable, and thus people have taken advantage of the system.

A reporter in Canada went undercover and became a beggar for a month. His report showed that many beggars "earn" more than $100 a day. A reporter in Ohio (I believe) once did a report on homelessness, and followed a beggar standing by a down town free-way exit. He followed him back to his car, and then followed the car back to his apartment where his wife got home from work later that day.

These people have discovered that with food stamps, welfare, public housing, medicaid, plus private charity services, and finely supplemental income from begging, they can systematically milk the working class for a living. One report I read not too long ago, said that mathematically, when you compare the hours "worked" as a beggar, verses the money collected, and benefits received by government programs, the average beggar "earns" $15 to $20 per hour. In other words, it's nearly more economically sound to be a beggar, than a fast food worker or medical lab technician.

My view is this. We need to simply eliminate these programs. These people are not going to just sit on the ground and die. They are going to do the same as the welfare lady. They are going to get up, get a job, and earn a living. When you make it less economical to be on the welfare rolls, and collecting government assistance, people will change how they live.
 
Middle calss tax increase
MSNBC reported joke as news
No gay marriges
89% of muslims voted obama
Gushing over Obama
Obama may scape (?) campaing (?) audit
This is by far the most laughable one yet:
Wall street investors are racist

Now take a look at this one. What names are missing within this well thought out, equally debated thread?

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5935
Do you ever wonder why, when one googles "political forums", Houseofpolitics doesn't even show up until the THIRD page?
It reminds me of Jonestown
Now I understand why I don't post here any longer........sigh....
Will this thread now be moved and locked as well?

Let the flames begin....

Granted I have only been to one other political forum... but... it was pretty much the exact same thing. You have a few people who directly debate the topics in concise reasonable logical manors, then you have a bunch of opinions being batted around, and then you have hundreds of seemingly unimportant side topics.

You pointed out the anti-Obama stuff here, but we've had to put up with people like Popeye, Sihouette, Shaman, and Topgun posts which have all been equally pointless and rather illogical.

Rantacrat wrote: This guy broke a law, and he knew someone who was a friend of someone, who was roommates with someone, who knew Bush's great uncle FRED!!!, :cool: who is obviously guilty of 25 counts of murder, which means obviously Bush is a terrorist and we should impeach him!!!!! :mad: :eek: :rolleyes:
I generally just accept that there will be people like this on every forum I go to. If not, I'd have left already. But seeing as how I greatly enjoy some discussions with specific people here, and since I think we have some really good moderators, regardless of their personal political views, I still think this is the place to be.
 
Let's take a vote as to how many days obama will be in office before he increases the taxes for the middle class!

I give it 2 months...maybe less.

He'll do it very nicely of course. ;)

Bend over America!!!

well its about 2 months before he takes office so yeah thats about right, 2-3 weeks after that he will say looking at the situation its more dire than I thought, then he will bush bash and say sorry but...

I hope he raises them really high too
on the middle, the rich and the poor


eventually they will go high but i dont want to wait for it, i want it all right away
 

Middle Class Tax Increase​

Let's take a vote as to how many days obama will be in office before he increases the taxes for the middle class!

I give it 2 months...maybe less.

He'll do it very nicely of course. ;)

Bend over America!!!

well its about 2 months before he takes office so yeah thats about right, 2-3 weeks after that he will say looking at the situation its more dire than I thought, then he will bush bash and say sorry but...
 
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