No more energy speculation?

Brilliant come back. How can I argue against such a quick minded response. Please, please, no more...
Time constraints, sorry. You, however, are NOT a pleasant person to talk to--you tend to be somewhat less than neighborly with a lot of your posts. That said... turnabout is fair play.

Almost too dumb of a question to answer. 1) The recent (last Summer) high price of gasoline was not due to demand out pacing supply. If it were, there would have been signs on gas stations that said: "Sorry, out of gas." There were no signs as there were during the OPEC supply shut down of the '70's
2) As I suggested in a post above, (if you had only read it), if the only entities that were allowed to purchase crude oil were refineries, (by law, as at one time Americans were not allowed to own gold), the speculators could not create an artificially high (but false) demand for oil. 3) Thus, the price of oil would reflect the true demand and it would not result in $4.00+ per gallon oil.
Futures contracts cover quite a long range of time. You can buy futures contracts on oil for five years from now if you want to. What you saw as the spike last year was spot market prices. Before you start typing away without reading anymore, I'll accede that some of the big spike last year was due to speculation by some folks that shouldn't be "in the oil futures market".

But that doesn't mean that all of the speculators were working that way or that speculation is wrong. For a very long term market like oil, it's a necessity. As oil production from a given field somewhat follows a bell curve, it's just a geological fact that new wells have to be constantly drilled and new fields constantly found. There's a plethora of things that have to happen to make that work. Mineral rights; surface rights; easements; contracts; exploration; surveying; testing for production economics; drilling for production; design & fabrication of upstream production processing; design & fabrication of gathering; delivery to refinement centers... that's a heckuva' long chain involving YEARS between the initial planning and development. That IS speculation at it's finest because you're literally out billions of dollars before ever one lousy drop makes it to market from a new and truly substantial field.

And what kinds of things can trip you up? Local wars or destabilizing politics, steel prices, energy prices, changing tax legislation (it's not all in the US afterall... ), availability of necessary materials due to a million factors, changing CURRENCY valuations... to name just a VERY few.

The true demand for and production of oil has roughly followed a ~2%/yr increase up until 2005. "All liquids" grew a little but the period from 2005 to 2008 didn't see as much of a production rise. RCO (Regular Conventional Oil) began its terminal decline. A lot of the remaining stuff in several areas has undesirable components in it like heavy metals, sulfur and is just plain heavier crude. It's axiomatic: you always pick the low-hanging fruit first and leave the more difficult stuff for last.
 
Werbung:
Time constraints, sorry. You, however, are NOT a pleasant person to talk to--you tend to be somewhat less than neighborly with a lot of your posts. That said... turnabout is fair play.
I misunderstood your previous short post. I thought that it was just a platatude comming from a conservative, free market obsessed, idologe. Although I consider myself to be the epitome of neighborlyness, :eek: I offer a public and sincere apology.
 
No need to be too nice, either... but accepted.

I guess I can't claim to be either right or left. I'm more of a "doomer". All my life I've been a troubleshooter (of real systems) and, therefore, have to necessarily get beyond perceptions and desires to pure reality. My best friend is a scientist at Argonne National Laboratories (I was Best Man at his wedding many decades ago) and he told me about Peak Oil a few years ago. You would do well to learn about it for the sake of you and yours. The best of the Peak Oil people have predicted exactly what has happened several years before now. I tend to give a lot of credence to folks who make hard predictions and prove out to be correct.

Mind you, that only means that further examination is warranted, and that's what I've been doing with my spare time. The Big Picture is looking uglier the deeper I've looked. Regardless of how much anyone on the right or the left complains, big changes are coming and the ultimate result isn't going to be pleasant for either side. As a guess, I'd say that a lot of what APPEARS to be Breaking News is really what some "They" wants us to focus on in order to divert our attention from the big things that are really going on.
 
I guess I can't claim to be either right or left. I'm more of a "doomer".
Mind you, that only means that further examination is warranted, and that's what I've been doing with my spare time. The Big Picture is looking uglier the deeper I've looked. Regardless of how much anyone on the right or the left complains, big changes are coming and the ultimate result isn't going to be pleasant for either side. As a guess, I'd say that a lot of what APPEARS to be Breaking News is really what some "They" wants us to focus on in order to divert our attention from the big things that are really going on.
I am what could be called a "doomer", also. However, I disagree with the concept of "...they want us to focus...". I do not see any purposeful misdirection of a government "they".

I see it as a ride down a freeway at high speed with the government leftest entities pulling on the steering wheel to the left, and the government rightest entities pulling on the steering wheel to the right, while the people (us) are in the back seats screaming in terror. The outcome is an inevitable crash. The fact that the "car" has remained on the road this long is due to chance, nothing else. There is no fixing it. If those in power were removed and replaced, the same thing would happen again (polarization, self interest, etc.)...human nature is what it is.
 
In any case, in the long view, oil prices will go inexorably up and there won't be a blessed thing to be done about it.
There are things (in theory), that could be done about it. Wind power, solar, nuclear, tidal, wave (ocean). However, the polarized committee government is slow to act, and committee action results in less than ideal and workable solutions (The old, "The camel is a horse designed by a committee", example). Yes, we are pretty much screwed. Nations take root, bloom to world prominence and then fade into oblivion. Five hundred or so years from now (providing any human civilization has survived), few will have heard of the United States of America, or will care.
 
You know... the toughest part of it all (with respect to energy and the future) is to quantify production in finite terms and EROEI's as well. In order for the economy to actually continue as a "growth-based model", the net energy delivered to the consumer MUST increase. We haven't done that for quite awhile--we've been living on efficiency increases to offset decline. That can carry us for awhile, but the returns have been exponentially running out. From an engineering standpoint, more efficiency usually drives fabrication costs up. I've got a representative chart in a boiler engineering book but will have to take a real picture of it and download it to the computer.
 
As to the tie between high finance and economy, here is Latvia having a problem. It always starts somewhere first:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/latvia-debt-auction-disappoints-amid-crisis-2009-10-07?siteid=rss

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/6263039/Banks-brace-for-Latvias-collapse.html

http://seekingalpha.com/article/164956-sweden-prepares-for-financial-collapse-in-latvia-major-bank-losses-at-home

Mind you, Latvia isn't the first--Iceland's got 'em beat by nearly a year and a few others as well. However, now you can learn by watching this one in real time.
 
How, pray tell, is the "gubmint" going to regulate prices on a resource that's increasingly coming from foreign countries?

The government of Saudi Arabia is able to do a good job of it. If we had the oil resources that they do, so could we.

But no, there is no way that our government is going to counter the laws of supply and demand. Demand keeps growing, but supply does not.

Speculation doesn't help either, as we found out last summer when the price peaked at around $120 for a barrel of oil, and $4.50 for a gallon of regular. The prices we're seeing now are more in line with what supply and demand would set.

Of course, next year, the demand will be more, the supply will be the same, and the year after that demand will grow, and the year after that too.

Unless, of course, we begin to pursue a rational energy policy. Fat chance of that.
 
The US has cut back quite a bit on its overall oil consumption, actually, from a peak of about 21,500,000 barrels/day down to around 18,700,000 barrels/day. And with that big, whoppin' drop in use, we're still hanging around $70/barrel. It should waft up to ~$90 next year according to various analysts. Don't worry, the economy will go down even further and we'll use even less energy, no need for an energy policy.

What... uhh... exactly did you want a rational energy policy to do?
 
The US has cut back quite a bit on its overall oil consumption, actually, from a peak of about 21,500,000 barrels/day down to around 18,700,000 barrels/day. And with that big, whoppin' drop in use, we're still hanging around $70/barrel. It should waft up to ~$90 next year according to various analysts. Don't worry, the economy will go down even further and we'll use even less energy, no need for an energy policy.

There's the upside to the economic downturn: less oil consumption, less demand, and therefore lower prices. Of course, all the Saudis have to do is cut back production a little bit, and the price stabilizes.

As for those "analysts", are they right? If the price does go up, will the Saudis simply open the spigot a little bit and stabilize prices again? Remember, their interest is not in keeping the price too high, nor too low. If the price goes too high, then alternative sources begin to become profitable.

What... uhh... exactly did you want a rational energy policy to do?
How about bring down prices without having to have a recession, or maybe take a few steps toward energy independence?
 
The best analysis that I've seen and tracked on Saudi output is that they can't really "open the spigot" more anymore. Gwahar has been managed by way of waterflooding the formation (fecal pellet limestone, by the way). Back in its glory days, Gwahar sported a production level of about 5.5 million barrels per day. It's going down now. The word in spring of 2004 was that it was running about a 55% water cut (bad). 2006 demonstrated a 70% water cut. No, if they "open the spigot" any more, they'll just start coning the field. "Coning" means that the water below pushes its way up to the wellbore due to the viscosity of the oil being greater than the viscosity of the water. We learned our lesson about spigot opening in the fields of West Texas.

"Doesn't Saudi have more fields?" Why... yes, they do--all vastly smaller than Gwahar with a lot of sour and/or heavy crude, which isn't something that refiners want if they can keep from it. The "heavier" an oil is, the more it's comprised of heavier molecules. Think: lubricants... paraffins... tar... that kind of stuff. Tar sands, by the way, are literally organic deposits that weren't buried deep enough and haven't been able to "cook" into the higher-energy molecules that we'd like (natural gas is the highest-energy version, by the way, but isn't as useful for portability as fuel oils and gasoline).

One way of looking at the prices rising is that they already have, you just didn't realize it. Big users like airlines and retailers have already bought very significant portions of their expected usages years in advance. When you see "spot market prices", you're not seeing the whole picture. As an example, QuikTrip may have already bought many years worth of tiered futures contracts in anticipation of doing business years from when they bought them. And they've already agreed to a much higher price for those futures contracts than you know. Locking in a deal well in advance both entails and mitigates risks. You can think of it like a "diversified portfolio" since we're mostly all aware of those. They won't have bought ALL of their anticipated gasoline and diesel, so they'll have to compete in the short-term futures markets when the time actually gets close to actual consumption. That is, they might have to buy 5% of their expected needs for the month of September in August and so have to go with the spot market to do it. That's a rough example.

What ended up actually happening with the oil price spike was a cascading demand destruction that wiped out a significant amount of demand for a relatively short period. Worse, it caused a nasty backlash of profits-turning-to-losses that bankrupted a lot of companies and individuals. That kind of crap doesn't generally show up immediately but it's doggone sure showing up now. When you add to that the dirty trick that Russia did to the money market funds in September of last year, it was too much for the world economic system.

Don't get me wrong... the rise of the finance economy since the creation of "credit default swaps" and "collateralized debt obligations" in the mid-'90s and the repeal of Glass-Steagall, all of that ultimately caused The Mother of All Bubbles that couldn't be sustained for more than the ~15-ish years that they have been--it was bound to crash eventually, just like it did back in '29 and then again a little later in the early '30s. Matter of fact, they're basically not doing anything significantly different at this point to avoid a further crash. Washington does NOT have control of this thing, the banks do. You have no idea how scared they're running at this point or how completely insolvent they are. Exact same thing back in the early '30s.

Listen, I'm an engineer. I play with hydrocarbons and how to both process and use them on a daily basis. I've been offshore a bunch of times. I've watched wells die and I've watched fields die. I've seen hundreds of millions of dollars spent trying to make projects work (fields) that just didn't ultimately pan out and turned out to be horrific losses. That's exploration for ya', it is what it is. Today, we're having to work much harder (read: spend A LOT more money) to bring the same flows onstream that we used to do so easily decades ago. Crap... it was "effortless" back in the glory days compared to now.

And... the mathematics aren't looking too good. Fossil fuels (oil, coal, gas) give us about 85% of our entire world energy consumption:

2727931750073664377S600x600Q85.jpg


It wouldn't be quite so bad if the big bankers hadn't goosed everyone and everything so deeply into debt. At this point, there's way-the-heck-and-gone too much debt in the system that's ultimately robbing our ability to provide the capital required to get set up for a decently controlled consumption decline on the scale that we require.

Mrs. Haman, of course, believes that if only we can legalize marijuana and market it through American mom-and-pop producers AND save tons of money through socialized medicine, we'd have the money to build the Enterprise and start star-trekking around the universe. I guess I forgot to mention getting the money back from the 1%-ers... the same folks that threatened CONgress to either cough up the TARP money or watch the banking system go bye-bye back in late 2008. Yeah... good luck on getting that...
 
The best analysis that I've seen and tracked on Saudi output is that they can't really "open the spigot" more anymore. Gwahar has been managed by way of waterflooding the formation (fecal pellet limestone, by the way). Back in its glory days, Gwahar sported a production level of about 5.5 million barrels per day. It's going down now. The word in spring of 2004 was that it was running about a 55% water cut (bad). 2006 demonstrated a 70% water cut. No, if they "open the spigot" any more, they'll just start coning the field. "Coning" means that the water below pushes its way up to the wellbore due to the viscosity of the oil being greater than the viscosity of the water. We learned our lesson about spigot opening in the fields of West Texas.

"Doesn't Saudi have more fields?" Why... yes, they do--all vastly smaller than Gwahar with a lot of sour and/or heavy crude, which isn't something that refiners want if they can keep from it. The "heavier" an oil is, the more it's comprised of heavier molecules. Think: lubricants... paraffins... tar... that kind of stuff. Tar sands, by the way, are literally organic deposits that weren't buried deep enough and haven't been able to "cook" into the higher-energy molecules that we'd like (natural gas is the highest-energy version, by the way, but isn't as useful for portability as fuel oils and gasoline).

One way of looking at the prices rising is that they already have, you just didn't realize it. Big users like airlines and retailers have already bought very significant portions of their expected usages years in advance. When you see "spot market prices", you're not seeing the whole picture. As an example, QuikTrip may have already bought many years worth of tiered futures contracts in anticipation of doing business years from when they bought them. And they've already agreed to a much higher price for those futures contracts than you know. Locking in a deal well in advance both entails and mitigates risks. You can think of it like a "diversified portfolio" since we're mostly all aware of those. They won't have bought ALL of their anticipated gasoline and diesel, so they'll have to compete in the short-term futures markets when the time actually gets close to actual consumption. That is, they might have to buy 5% of their expected needs for the month of September in August and so have to go with the spot market to do it. That's a rough example.

What ended up actually happening with the oil price spike was a cascading demand destruction that wiped out a significant amount of demand for a relatively short period. Worse, it caused a nasty backlash of profits-turning-to-losses that bankrupted a lot of companies and individuals. That kind of crap doesn't generally show up immediately but it's doggone sure showing up now. When you add to that the dirty trick that Russia did to the money market funds in September of last year, it was too much for the world economic system.

Don't get me wrong... the rise of the finance economy since the creation of "credit default swaps" and "collateralized debt obligations" in the mid-'90s and the repeal of Glass-Steagall, all of that ultimately caused The Mother of All Bubbles that couldn't be sustained for more than the ~15-ish years that they have been--it was bound to crash eventually, just like it did back in '29 and then again a little later in the early '30s. Matter of fact, they're basically not doing anything significantly different at this point to avoid a further crash. Washington does NOT have control of this thing, the banks do. You have no idea how scared they're running at this point or how completely insolvent they are. Exact same thing back in the early '30s.

Listen, I'm an engineer. I play with hydrocarbons and how to both process and use them on a daily basis. I've been offshore a bunch of times. I've watched wells die and I've watched fields die. I've seen hundreds of millions of dollars spent trying to make projects work (fields) that just didn't ultimately pan out and turned out to be horrific losses. That's exploration for ya', it is what it is. Today, we're having to work much harder (read: spend A LOT more money) to bring the same flows onstream that we used to do so easily decades ago. Crap... it was "effortless" back in the glory days compared to now.

And... the mathematics aren't looking too good. Fossil fuels (oil, coal, gas) give us about 85% of our entire world energy consumption:

2727931750073664377S600x600Q85.jpg


It wouldn't be quite so bad if the big bankers hadn't goosed everyone and everything so deeply into debt. At this point, there's way-the-heck-and-gone too much debt in the system that's ultimately robbing our ability to provide the capital required to get set up for a decently controlled consumption decline on the scale that we require.

Mrs. Haman, of course, believes that if only we can legalize marijuana and market it through American mom-and-pop producers AND save tons of money through socialized medicine, we'd have the money to build the Enterprise and start star-trekking around the universe. I guess I forgot to mention getting the money back from the 1%-ers... the same folks that threatened CONgress to either cough up the TARP money or watch the banking system go bye-bye back in late 2008. Yeah... good luck on getting that...

If the Saudis are really running out of oil, they're not admitting to it. In fact, they're saying the opposite.

Saudi Arabia Bullish On Oil's Future


(CBS) The good news is that the price of oil is falling - a lot; it's also the bad news if you're determined that the U.S. should kick its addiction to foreign oil. President-elect Barack Obama says now is the time to do that, even with the economy in recession.

But Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil supplier - with the U.S. as its number one customer - is pulling all the levers and spending billions to keep the oil age going.

Of course, they might not be totally honest about their supply. They kind of like the graphs you just posted, and have no interest in seeing us invest the money it would take to produce significantly more energy from non petroleum sources.

If you're right about the Saudi oil fields, then a rational energy policy, including a deliberate move to use less oil, would seem to be even more urgent, wouldn't it?
 
If the Saudis are really running out of oil, they're not admitting to it. In fact, they're saying the opposite.

Saudi Arabia Bullish On Oil's Future




Of course, they might not be totally honest about their supply. They kind of like the graphs you just posted, and have no interest in seeing us invest the money it would take to produce significantly more energy from non petroleum sources.

If you're right about the Saudi oil fields, then a rational energy policy, including a deliberate move to use less oil, would seem to be even more urgent, wouldn't it?
Generally, frankness and honesty in the Middle East have always been variables, not absolutes. It's just a different mindset with respect to negotiating--the seller always starts with an obvious exaggeration. With respect to acquiring investment money in oil infrastructure, though, you get a better initial offering if you exaggerate the reserves claim.

Another twist, though, is that the "technically recoverable" quantity is usually very different from the "economically recoverable" one. The better metric to use there is how oilfields in the past have actually performed. You see, the world just proved that our overall economy and debt service load has a feedback into oil production. That is, there IS a limit to how much our energy can cost without causing a downward spiral. That right there is the real problem and could use some further analysis.
 
Werbung:
Back
Top