North Korea joins the Nuclear Club

[BigRob]

If someone sold to our forces can be an "enemy combatant, why can't a third rate dictator like Il be a batty enemy? I'd be willing to bet he's responsible for a lot more death and human misery than any of the enemy combatants we tortured, even the ones who were really guilty.

To date, those who were sold to us have mostly been released. Of those, in the public record, there were none that I can think of offhand that were tortured, and those that were they soldiers responsible have been tried.

And, since the torture wasn't really torture but "enhanced interrogation", we could call the assassination an early termination. See? The legal problems are solved by changing a few key words.

I am all for regime change in North Korea, I have written a plan for such in fact, however, under domestic US law, we are not able to assassinate him. Changing the name does not get around the law, Congressional approval is what allows us to act in the manner that the US acted in. If we want to revoke Executive Order 11905, and then have Congress sign off on it, then lets do it.

 

[PLC1]

To date, those who were sold to us have mostly been released. Of those, in the public record, there were none that I can think of offhand that were tortured, and those that were they soldiers responsible have been tried.




I am all for regime change in North Korea, I have written a plan for such in fact, however, under domestic US law, we are not able to assassinate him. Changing the name does not get around the law, Congressional approval is what allows us to act in the manner that the US acted in. If we want to revoke Executive Order 11905, and then have Congress sign off on it, then lets do it.

We could go that way, or we could get someone else to do it instead. We could go ahead and assassinate the cockroach, then claim someone else did it. There are numerous possibilities.

 

[The Scotsman]

People have been predicting regime implosion over there since the early 1990's. Roughly 20 years later they are still here. I would not bank on them simply going away, especially with Chinese backing.

Fair point, I'll give you that. Yeah I think resilience of the personality cult has been pretty strong backed up by the secret police!

Okay so.....lets have wee look then.......the personality cult has no named successor, yet. Your man Kim Jong-Il is on the way out especially following his stroke and there's been some pretty intense debate as to who will succeed him. The lad has 3 sons and has not yet announced who is going to succeed so there is a possibility of a really bloody power struggle if its not handled correctly and god only knows what power positioning is going on at the moment!

The personality cult is the one constant that has kept the poeple in check so far, it'll be interesting to see if they transfer it to the oldest fruitloop son Kim Jung-nam.

Then there's the inner circle of hard liners like Kim Yong-nam the decrepit president of the Presidium of the Supreme People's Assembly. Another fruitloop that could kill his way to power!

One thing that we've seen is the amount of cash that has been thrown at the military so these guys have a vested interest in maintaining their possitions of authority and like any tin pot little country if you control the military you've a pretty fair pop at power. So these bastards are not going to let go the reins without a struggle.

Put all this togther and and ................well a real bollox up. Especially if you start to threaten them and take away their chances of getting into power so how do'ya handle this?...............f**k knows!!!!!!!!

BUT the one thing that can happen for example is the South Koreans can cut of the rice and then you've got some really serious pissed off population problems! So much so that hordes of starved NKs head for the Chinese borders as refugees throwing themselves at the feet of their fraternal brothers asking to be fed and watered.....you reckon the Chinese will throw out the welcome wagon? Nah me neither!

The Chinese ain't stupid they've got an economy to protect are are not going to be too nice to the NKs indeed their Foreign Minister was pretty narked after their last pop-gun nuke test. IMHO don't bank on the Chinese sticking up to much for their revolutionary cousins.

All in all I reckon there'll be some kind of power sharing when Kim pops his clogs and I hope we'll see a slow but inexerable move to some kind of accomodation with the real world............I hope if for none other than the people!!??

 

[The Scotsman]

Such as?

............Iraq!!??

 

[pocketfullofshells]

1. based on intell he may not be the leader by the end of the year anyway. do to health he may be forced to step down. some view this last test as not to show the world, but to show its own military leaders ...as a way to keep there support for his son, who could take over.

2. The Devil that you know is somtimes better then the one you don't. Take one of the largest armys...add nukes...now add a power void and sudden loss of leader.....its just asking for a realy bad outcome. COuld it go wel? yes, but its also very likey that could some form of civil war...and with that very likey chance the south and thus US gets drawn in.

3. Its illegal, but US has shown it does not always care...then again I dont think its Obama's MO...Bush maybe...after he supported coups of elected , and does not care about the law much it seems so long as he can claim security...even if its a lie.

4.Killing Leaders of other nations sends bad precident and only serves to inspire more of the same by others. `we kill him and year latter they hit back and kill leader of S.Korea....we dont have much ground to stand on and say it was wrong.

5. The thing many seem to forget, is that its real life, its alot harder then to just say ...well kill him then and make it look like it was not us. its not a video game or movie.

 

[Andy]

............Iraq!!??

That doesn't fit.

 

[foggedinn]

United States, Russia, England, France, China, India, Pakistan, Israel, North Korea.

Possibly Ukraine, Bellarussia, Brazil, Iran, Argentina

Germany and Japan could both do it at the drop of a hat.

South Africa had them but gave them up before the end of apartied.

Who have I left out?

 

[BigRob]

United States, Russia, England, France, China, India, Pakistan, Israel, North Korea.

Possibly Ukraine, Bellarussia, Brazil, Iran, Argentina

Germany and Japan could both do it at the drop of a hat.

South Africa had them but gave them up before the end of apartied.

Who have I left out?

Saudi Arabia, Egypt, South Korea, Taiwan, UAE even, Libya.

 

[BigRob]

We could go that way, or we could get someone else to do it instead. We could go ahead and assassinate the cockroach, then claim someone else did it. There are numerous possibilities.

Unfortunately none of these are practical.

 

[BigRob]

Okay so.....lets have wee look then.......the personality cult has no named successor, yet. Your man Kim Jong-Il is on the way out especially following his stroke and there's been some pretty intense debate as to who will succeed him. The lad has 3 sons and has not yet announced who is going to succeed so there is a possibility of a really bloody power struggle if its not handled correctly and god only knows what power positioning is going on at the moment!

True.

The personality cult is the one constant that has kept the poeple in check so far, it'll be interesting to see if they transfer it to the oldest fruitloop son Kim Jung-nam.

Well the personality cult, as well as absolute dependence on the government to survive.

Then there's the inner circle of hard liners like Kim Yong-nam the decrepit president of the Presidium of the Supreme People's Assembly. Another fruitloop that could kill his way to power!

One thing that we've seen is the amount of cash that has been thrown at the military so these guys have a vested interest in maintaining their possitions of authority and like any tin pot little country if you control the military you've a pretty fair pop at power. So these bastards are not going to let go the reins without a struggle.

Put all this togther and and ................well a real bollox up. Especially if you start to threaten them and take away their chances of getting into power so how do'ya handle this?...............f**k knows!!!!!!!!

I think we handle it by pressuring China. I think if you remove China from basically propping up the North Koreans, they will collapse.

BUT the one thing that can happen for example is the South Koreans can cut of the rice and then you've got some really serious pissed off population problems! So much so that hordes of starved NKs head for the Chinese borders as refugees throwing themselves at the feet of their fraternal brothers asking to be fed and watered.....you reckon the Chinese will throw out the welcome wagon? Nah me neither!

I think the better solution is to limit Chinese oil going to North Korea, but no China is not going to be thrilled about refugees.

The Chinese ain't stupid they've got an economy to protect are are not going to be too nice to the NKs indeed their Foreign Minister was pretty narked after their last pop-gun nuke test. IMHO don't bank on the Chinese sticking up to much for their revolutionary cousins.

I think until Japan goes nuclear China is going to stick up for them. I think that is the leverage that we have and should be using.

All in all I reckon there'll be some kind of power sharing when Kim pops his clogs and I hope we'll see a slow but inexerable move to some kind of accomodation with the real world............I hope if for none other than the people!!??

I don't see any "power sharing" going to happen in North Korea whatsoever. If that is the case, mind as well just prepare ourselves for a civil war.

 

[BigRob]

............Iraq!!??

Want me to make a legal case for why Iraq was legal? Anyway, that is not really a case of calling something something else and then "going ahead with it."

 

[BigRob]

1. based on intell he may not be the leader by the end of the year anyway. do to health he may be forced to step down. some view this last test as not to show the world, but to show its own military leaders ...as a way to keep there support for his son, who could take over.

Don't kid yourself. Our intelligence knows as much about North Korea as they know about Iran. Not much.

3. Its illegal, but US has shown it does not always care...then again I dont think its Obama's MO...Bush maybe...after he supported coups of elected , and does not care about the law much it seems so long as he can claim security...even if its a lie.

It is Bush's MO to support coups? Clearly you might want to reread American history. Further, Bush did not break any law.

4.Killing Leaders of other nations sends bad precident and only serves to inspire more of the same by others. `we kill him and year latter they hit back and kill leader of S.Korea....we dont have much ground to stand on and say it was wrong.

I think this kind of thing needs to go on a case by case basis.

5. The thing many seem to forget, is that its real life, its alot harder then to just say ...well kill him then and make it look like it was not us. its not a video game or movie.

Yes it is. Which is why that option is not practical.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Don't kid yourself. Our intelligence knows as much about North Korea as they know about Iran. Not much.



It is Bush's MO to support coups? Clearly you might want to reread American history. Further, Bush did not break any law.



I think this kind of thing needs to go on a case by case basis.




Yes it is. Which is why that option is not practeical.

US supports coups, when we like them yes. And as far as targeting leaders of a nation, Bush showed he would do that, we target Saddam with bombs before the war started...war came just days later. So I stand by the fact I dont think Bush would oppose assination if he felt it would work, regardless if legal.

and yes we do have poor intel on N Korea, much of it conflicting...I am simply stateing what some of our intel states...I do not take it as fact, but only a verry possible outcome could be. Unlike some I dont ask for cooked books on intel that tell me what I want, not what we know. even our own sources in Korea I am sure get conflicting info from teh goverment, as the even lie to each other...such as what happened to throw off US intel in the USSR...when they lie to each other and you pick up the lies...it seems legit, even there own people belive it....does not make it true though.


and while Bush may not have broken a law supporting the coup...he did make us look like idiots and hypocrits when the coup failed days later and we had sided against the elected leader ...with a group of people stated to have visted the white house just before the coup...

as for secret assisins who set up others....I think it goes to the "I watch to many movies and tv shows "theory again....not that the Unit is not a great show, with some actul fact based stuff

 

[pocketfullofshells]

US supports coups, when we like them yes. And as far as targeting leaders of a nation, Bush showed he would do that, we target Saddam with bombs before the war started...war came just days later. So I stand by the fact I dont think Bush would oppose assination if he felt it would work, regardless if legal.

and yes we do have poor intel on N Korea, much of it conflicting...I am simply stateing what some of our intel states...I do not take it as fact, but only a verry possible outcome could be. Unlike some I dont ask for cooked books on intel that tell me what I want, not what we know. even our own sources in Korea I am sure get conflicting info from teh goverment, as the even lie to each other...such as what happened to throw off US intel in the USSR...when they lie to each other and you pick up the lies...it seems legit, even there own people belive it....does not make it true though.


and while Bush may not have broken a law supporting the coup...he did make us look like idiots and hypocrits when the coup failed days later and we had sided against the elected leader ...with a group of people stated to have visted the white house just before the coup...

as for secret assisins who set up others....I think it goes to the "I watch to many movies and tv shows "theory again....not that the Unit is not a great show, with some actul fact based stuff

as for killing leaders on case by case, I agree, that you pay for those later..but sometimes its worth it. even had we taken out saddamn before the war, if it prevetented a war...but bush and others went to jail for war crimes ( not likey) if prevented the war....few could say it would not be worth it. 4000 dead Americans and there freinds and family I think would be willing to see that.

 

[The Scotsman]

Want me to make a legal case for why Iraq was legal?

............Dear god no!! I can live happily ever after without listening to more legal bovine excrement as to why we ended up in Iraq! In any case in the UK we were lied so its irrelevent to me.