Obama as a "Socialist"

[Agnapostate]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name any legitimate socialist policies or ideologies of Barack Obama? Socialism is the public ownership of the means of production, so if you've spotted any nationalization or expropriation platforms on his website, feel free to link to them here.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name any legitimate socialist policies or ideologies of Barack Obama? Socialism is the public ownership of the means of production, so if you've spotted any nationalization or expropriation platforms on his website, feel free to link to them here.

The irony is.....the people who've initiated this accusation are much closer to the high-roller$ who've benefitted MOST from socialism; Republican-stylehttp://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1853846,00.html.

 

[Stalin]

From the communist manifesto, here are what are considered to be the socialist objectives.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

Comrade Stalin

 

[Mr. Carpenter]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone name any legitimate socialist policies or ideologies of Barack Obama? Socialism is the public ownership of the means of production, so if you've spotted any nationalization or expropriation platforms on his website, feel free to link to them here.

Socialism is a whole lot more than mere "public ownership of the means of production" Agnapostate, but thanks for the lame attempt at a strawman.

 

[Agnapostate]

From the communist manifesto, here are what are considered to be the socialist objectives.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Obama has not advocated this.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

That is false, actually. The portion regarding the income tax is a mistranslation.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Obama has not advocated this.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Obama has not advocated this. In fact, it's more accurate to say that most conservatives advocate the confiscation or property of emigrants to a greater extent than liberals do.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Obama has not advocated such measures to any greater extent than McCain has. Bush is the one who is nationalizing assets at the moment.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

Obama has not advocated this.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Obama has not advocated this.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Obama has not advocated this.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

Obama has not advocated this.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

The current public school system is part of the capitalist mode of production, as its goal is intended to prepare students for the capitalist workplace. A public school system is a hallmark of all liberal democracies, and might be better described as a mild form of social democracy than socialism.

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

Comrade Stalin

Socialism is also not limited to Marxism.

Socialism is a whole lot more than mere "public ownership of the means of production" Agnapostate, but thanks for the lame attempt at a strawman.

socialism: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.

It seems as though your feud is with Merriam-Webster, not me.

 

[Mr. Carpenter]

OH THIS IS RICH!!

Two Commies arguing about whose form of Communism is best.

I'm the biggest Commie.

NO, I'M the biggest Commie!

ARE NOT!

AM TOO!!

YOU LIE!!!

YOU LIE!!!

Pathetic

 

[GenSeneca]

Socialism is the public ownership of the means of production

If you get to use this incredibly narrow definition of Socialism, then we don't have Capitalism in America either.

Capitalism is the absence of government regulation and control over the free markets and economy.... we certainly don't have that in America.

Do you think America has a "Mixed" economy?

What's exactly is it "Mixed" with?

 

[Sihouette]

Our government should be the proper mix of socialism and capitalism. Just enough socialist programs to make capitalism prosper.

Like 2 part socialism to 5 parts capitalism. In that 2 parts must be protection not only of State (the military) but of State's internal foundation (the workers who make up this country) and yes, that means...

drum roll...

Universal health care.

 

[Mr. Carpenter]

Our government should be the proper mix of socialism and capitalism. Just enough socialist programs to make capitalism prosper.

Like 2 part socialism to 5 parts capitalism. In that 2 parts must be protection not only of State (the military) but of State's internal foundation (the workers who make up this country) and yes, that means...

drum roll...

Universal health care.

Only if you want to bankrupt the country, well at least quicker than we're already going to be bankrupt because of all of the other Socialist give-away programs we've already got.

Oh, and BTW, perhaps you can show us exactly where in the Constitution it authorizes ANY socialist spending? Let me save you some time, IT'S NOT IN THERE!!

So keep your platitudes, distractions, and misdirections about "taking care of X, Y, and Z" and try sticking to the Constitution AS WRITTEN.

 

[Agnapostate]

OH THIS IS RICH!!

Two Commies arguing about whose form of Communism is best.

I'm the biggest Commie.

NO, I'M the biggest Commie!

ARE NOT!

AM TOO!!

YOU LIE!!!

YOU LIE!!!

Pathetic

Almost as pathetic as not responding to a rebuttal to a poor point that you attempt to make.

If you get to use this incredibly narrow definition of Socialism, then we don't have Capitalism in America either.

Capitalism is the absence of government regulation and control over the free markets and economy.... we certainly don't have that in America.

Do you think America has a "Mixed" economy?

What's exactly is it "Mixed" with?

America certainly doesn't have a "free market," as no free market has ever existed. The United States practices mixed-market capitalism in that it combines market enterprise and government programs. The government programs are not a form of socialism because they do not involve collective ownership of the means of production.

Our government should be the proper mix of socialism and capitalism. Just enough socialist programs to make capitalism prosper.

Like 2 part socialism to 5 parts capitalism. In that 2 parts must be protection not only of State (the military) but of State's internal foundation (the workers who make up this country) and yes, that means...

drum roll...

Universal health care.

Universal health care is more social democratic than socialistic. Social democracy is in turn a leftist form of mixed market capitalism.

 

[Mr. Carpenter]

Almost as pathetic as not responding to a rebuttal to a poor point that you attempt to make.

Not at all, I just responded to you in as simplistic terms as you are apparantly capable of understanding, given your rather stunted definition of socialism.

Oh, and your "Libertarian Socialism" is still COMMUNISM, no matter how you try to camoflage it.

 

[GenSeneca]

Our government should be the proper mix of socialism and capitalism. Just enough socialist programs to make capitalism prosper.

Name one socialist policy that doesn't result in massive debt.

While you're thinking about that... Consider this:

The only proper functions of government are the Military, Police and the Courts.

Military, to protect the rights of all Americans from outside force.

Police, to protect the rights of all Americans from the use of force.

Courts, to protect the rights of all Americans from force and fraud.

Government exists to protect the rights of all Americans... Period.

If you think Healthcare is a Right... You have lost the meaning of what a Right actually is.

 

[GenSeneca]

America certainly doesn't have a "free market," as no free market has ever existed. The United States practices mixed-market capitalism in that it combines market enterprise and government programs. The government programs are not a form of socialism because they do not involve collective ownership of the means of production.

If I can't call socialist policies "socialist" because of your narrow definition, then by your own narrow rules of definition, you cannot call our system "capitalist".

Agnapostate,

Do you own a Car?

Please answer.

 

[GenSeneca]

America certainly doesn't have a "free market," as no free market has ever existed. The United States practices mixed-market capitalism in that it combines market enterprise and government programs. The government programs are not a form of socialism because they do not involve collective ownership of the means of production.

If I call socialist policies "socialist" because of your narrow definition, then by your own narrow rules of definition, you cannot call our system "capitalist".

Universal health care is more social democratic than socialistic.

Bullshat... Thats like saying Cancer is only cancer once it kills you...


Agnapostate,

Do you own a Car?

Please answer.

 

[Agnapostate]

Not at all, I just responded to you in as simplistic terms as you are apparantly capable of understanding, given your rather stunted definition of socialism.

Oh, and your "Libertarian Socialism" is still COMMUNISM, no matter how you try to camoflage it.

Libertarian socialism is not necessarily communism, and includes collectivism, mutualism, and forms of market socialism. Libertarian socialist forms of communism would be anarcho-communism or council communism. Are you sure you know the proper definitions of libertarian socialism and communism?

If I can't call socialist policies "socialist" because of your narrow definition, then by your own narrow rules of definition, you cannot call our system "capitalist".

Agnapostate,

Do you own a Car?

Please answer.

I can call our system capitalist. It is not a free market capitalist system, but has an overlying capitalist tinge in that the means of production are privatized and wage labor exists. But does the American economic system involve the collective ownership of the means of production?