Obama wants to legitimize the 20 million illegal aliens - do you agree?

[numinus]

yes, the majority of illegals came here in search of a better life, and the majority do it via hard work and self sacrifice. That majority is an asset to the country.

However, and it's a big however:

There is a small but significant minority who come here to promote gangs and drugs, or to live off of the welfare state. That minority needs to be screened out. By allowing them to come illegally, there is no way to screen them out.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic.

Gangs are a social phenomenon based on ethnicity, not citizenship. Screening out illegals, therefore, wouldn't solve gang-related problems.

One more big however:

The country can only absorb just so many newcomers, especially uneducated non English speaking newcomers. If there are too many, they overwhelm our educational and health care systems, which are stressed to the max even without illegal aliens. We need to be able to determine how many will be allowed to immigrate.

Again, I do not follow.

How can a productive, hence contributing member of society cause stress to the public infrastructure? Shouldn't you be singling out people on welfare -- the majority of which are americans themselves?

And the last big however:

Those who come here illegally have to live in the shadows, in constant fear of deportation. They create an underclass of people willing to work for substandard wages and afraid to speak out for fear of being sent back home. Legal immigrants would not have such fears, and would more quickly assimilate into the mainstream of American life.

It's not prejudice. It's reality.

I'm sorry but that's not it at all. American businesses would jump at the opportunity to pay an over-qualified illegal for less than what they actually do.

My sister went to the states after getting married because her husband was working there. She was a highly qualified professional doing systems analysis and design when she left. She got work before getting her working visa as a programmer -- quite a step down from her qualifications -- apparently, because her boss cannot comprehend the fact that an asian is simply better than him, much less speak a more grammatically correct english than he is capable of. He cannot even accept the fact that a woman could hold a degree in statistics -- a course with a more rigorous form of mathematics than engineering.

When she finally got her work permit, she was promptly pirated by another firm. Good riddance, I say. I don't even understand why somebody with her intelligence would put up with racist morons in the first place.

 

[PLC1]

I'm not sure I'm following your logic.

Gangs are a social phenomenon based on ethnicity, not citizenship. Screening out illegals, therefore, wouldn't solve gang-related problems.

We already have enough home grown gangs, and don't want to import more from other countries. One of the worst is the MS 13, a Salvadoran gang that grew up during that country's civil war, and came of age on the mean streets of Los Angeles. It is, or at least was in the beginning, made up of illegals from El Salvador.

We already have plenty of drugs in the US, and don't want to import more. That's another enterprise of some of the illegals, bringing drugs into the US and selling them.

Not all illegal aliens are desirable. Were we to stop illegal immigration, and allow legal immigration, we could screen out those undesirables.

Again, I do not follow.

How can a productive, hence contributing member of society cause stress to the public infrastructure? Shouldn't you be singling out people on welfare -- the majority of which are americans themselves?

When there are too many of them, they overwhelm the health and educational system. Sure, they may be contributing members of society. It is unlikely that they contribute very much, as they work for abysmal wages and don't usually own property. Their children can be difficult to educate, as they don't speak English and often have a limited ability to speak their own language.

I'm sorry but that's not it at all. American businesses would jump at the opportunity to pay an over-qualified illegal for less than what they actually do.

Yes, they do jump at the opportunity.

My sister went to the states after getting married because her husband was working there. She was a highly qualified professional doing systems analysis and design when she left. She got work before getting her working visa as a programmer -- quite a step down from her qualifications -- apparently, because her boss cannot comprehend the fact that an asian is simply better than him, much less speak a more grammatically correct english than he is capable of. He cannot even accept the fact that a woman could hold a degree in statistics -- a course with a more rigorous form of mathematics than engineering.

When she finally got her work permit, she was promptly pirated by another firm. Good riddance, I say. I don't even understand why somebody with her intelligence would put up with racist morons in the first place.

The vast majority of the illegal aliens are not highly qualified at anything. That's another reason to stop illegal immigration, and control who comes into the country. We could allow more educated people to immigrate. We can take a certain number of unskilled and uneducated people, but only so many at one time.

 

[Libsmasher]

Guess what guys, no one is going to spend billions checking everyone and throwing them back to Mexico...leaving all there American born, American Kids here who are legal...Give up the pipe Dream, they are here and its to late. Stop more from crossing, and just make the ones here pay fines and get legal. You want to not pay for there medical as you claim? let them actuly be able to buy insurance, to get a job that pays for it.

It doesn't take billions - just start throwing a few of the law-breaking companies who hire them in jail, and they'll all be gone in a few months. The "anchor baby" scam needs to be taken back to court - it's based on erroneous previous court rulings - those children aren't really US citizens. There's NO WAY these people are going to pay for their medical treatment - they don't now, and nothing will change after they're "legalized".

 

[Libsmasher]

many reasons
1. Its easier to track them, with a legal name...not a alias, and a trail ( ownership, taxes, ext) the government will have a greater knowledge if needed about them

Track, my ass. They'll all have dual citizenship, and when they break laws, just pop back to mexico - like they do now.

2. If you are illegal, its hard to Get a licence...thus you have to drive without one, you often don't have good training....Also far more likely to not be able to get insurance...meaning if you get hit by someone, there is no Insurance company cover you outside your own.

BS - they won't pay up - in california when they get in a wreck, they just duck out by going back to mexico.

3. Normal Health care....you are forced in a Emergency to go and the government ends up with the bill....as non legal aliens are not able to get Health Insurance without using forged documents

And you think that'll change?? They work in ass-end jobs with no insurance - besides looting the health care system, they'll be continue to be a big drain in all kinds of other social services.

4.Employers cant work you overtime, pay you less then min wage, work without meeting safe working conditions required by law, and other things...as Illegals cant report them...

OH - one kind of lawbreaker can't report another kind of lawbreaker? So sad.

5. Cant report a crime, Illegals are often targeted for crimes, due to the fact that they fear going to the police as it risks

Illegals are the ones who COMMIT the crimes - 25% of the california prison population is illegal aliens.

Other issues would be that
Kids of Illegals,
A. May be legal citizens....but have there parents deported....Punishing the kids more then anyone, and the government then needs to find ways to deal with them
B. If not legal can have a hard time getting into schools, health care or other things that other kids get...they are Punished for the crimes of there parents.

The kids are not really citizens - that's based on erroneous court rulings that should and can be overturned. And should US citizens be punished for the crimes of their parents??

Just a few things I'm sure someone who has looked at this more can bring up more issues. We do need to secure the borders, but we also need to give up the pipe dream about going threw sweeping the nation and sending everyone back.

The only pipe dream is what you have from whatever you're smoking. Sending the aliens back would be straightforward, relatively simple, and quick once it gets started.

 

[Libsmasher]

There are a lot of good arguments for amnesty for illegals, but one fact cancels them all out:

Illegals were given amnesty back on '86, and the result was that the flood of illegal immigration became a torrent of illegal immigration. The word got around that it would be possible to sneak into the US, and become legitimate residents, maybe even citizens. It became a gold rush to high (relatively) wage jobs.

We can't afford to repeat that experiment. We have to insist that the current illegal aliens return to their native lands and apply for legal status there. To do otherwise is to simply open the borders.

Correct, and do you think amnesty for the current 20 million will be the last one? Every time they do this, they flood the country with new mexican-originated citizens, who will (and already have) organize politically to cause more amnesties, until the US is practically an extension of mexico.

 

[Libsmasher]

You need to get over your prejudice.

You need to get over your debate cowardice.

The fact is, the majority of illegals came to the us in search of a better life, and are willing to work to get just that -- given a decent chance. Unlike most american citizens who are looking for government hand-outs.

I don't give a flying f___ why someone broke our immigration laws, and they'll be a drain on our economy and are EXACTLY the kind of immigrants we DON'T need at this point in history - we need the SKILLED immigrants who can help us compete in the world, but those are the ones who follow the rules, get in line to immigrate, and end up thinking they are fools when they see 20 million illegal border crossers get citizenship.

 

[Libsmasher]

That's kind of a complex question. For illegals, it is the act of being in this country that it is illegal; the work most of them seek here is perfectly legitimate. Bank robbers perform illegal work that is to the detriment of society; immigrant workers perform legal work that is to the benefit of society.

The work they do, being paid black market labor wages by law-breaking employers, can and would be done by americans. In the absence of exploitable illegals, the wages paid would rise until they attracted a US citizen willing to do the work. The "work americans won't do" is a specious easily exposed as false argument that libs who know it is false use to manipulate idiots-with-a-vote.

 

[Libsmasher]

The 'law' that you are refering to is a quota on immigration set by some mid-level functionary in this or that embassy. This quota becomes moot since illegal aliens are already in the country, performing productive tasks and contributing to the economy.

The BS is just flowing from you. The illegal aliens are DRAINS on the economy. They go to the emergency rooms for regular health care, and don't pay. Their costs are shifted to others, and are part of what is driving up health care costs. The ones who come here and have anchor babies immediately are eligible, and cash in, on section 8 housing, food stamps, free legal aid, discounts at universities not available to american citizens, medicaid - on and on and on.

In the end, they are no different from the first europeans who came to the continent seeking a better life. Certainly a lot better than most 'citizens' who feel that some jobs are beneath them and yet accepting government largess not.

They don't bear the slightest resemblance to the euro immigrants. Those immigrants came legally, were screened, were allowed in on a measured basis, assimilated quickly, provided needed skills, and wanted nothing more than to become an American, not just a "u.s. citizen.".

The illegal aliens came here ILLEGALLY in an uncontrolled wave of millions of people, are NOT providing needed skills, don't speak english and most never will, are here to exploit the system, and would laugh at the idea that they would become Americans. There are so many that they are creating a sub-nation in the southwest.

 

[vyo476]

In the absence of exploitable illegals, the wages paid would rise until they attracted a US citizen willing to do the work.

Or, as is more likely, until the job takes a hop overseas, unless it's a service-industry job. Our economy really doesn't need any more of those.

The "work americans won't do" is a specious easily exposed as false argument that libs who know it is false use to manipulate idiots-with-a-vote.

1. I was not even bringing up the "work Americans won't do" argument. That was you.

2. It is not a (solely) liberal ploy. The most prominent historical example I can think of comes from the Antebellum South - notably, that slavery was a necessity because no white man would ever stoop to performing the sorts of labors blacks performed. Those were not liberals making those statements.

 

[numinus]

We already have enough home grown gangs, and don't want to import more from other countries. One of the worst is the MS 13, a Salvadoran gang that grew up during that country's civil war, and came of age on the mean streets of Los Angeles. It is, or at least was in the beginning, made up of illegals from El Salvador.

We already have plenty of drugs in the US, and don't want to import more. That's another enterprise of some of the illegals, bringing drugs into the US and selling them.

Not all illegal aliens are desirable. Were we to stop illegal immigration, and allow legal immigration, we could screen out those undesirables.

You are confusing two very different issues. A wealthy nation like the us will attract illegal immigrants as well as drugs as surely as **** attracts flies. It has something to do with the immutable law of supply and demand, I think. However, one has nothing to do with the other.

When there are too many of them, they overwhelm the health and educational system. Sure, they may be contributing members of society. It is unlikely that they contribute very much, as they work for abysmal wages and don't usually own property. Their children can be difficult to educate, as they don't speak English and often have a limited ability to speak their own language.

For a moment there, I thought you were describing americans. Most americans fit the description, certainly!

Except perhaps the 'abysmal wages' thing. Americans would rather stay unemployed (and feed off welfare) than be caught dead doing menial tasks.

Which goes back to the reason why illegal immigrants flock to the us.

Yes, they do jump at the opportunity.

The vast majority of the illegal aliens are not highly qualified at anything. That's another reason to stop illegal immigration, and control who comes into the country. We could allow more educated people to immigrate. We can take a certain number of unskilled and uneducated people, but only so many at one time.

They are certainly qualified to do manual labor -- something that an american with the same 'qualification' wouldn't imagine of doing -- except perhaps at 'trades people' rates.

 

[numinus]

You need to get over your debate cowardice.

Coward is the last thing I would describe myself in a debate.

I don't give a flying f___ why someone broke our immigration laws, and they'll be a drain on our economy and are EXACTLY the kind of immigrants we DON'T need at this point in history - we need the SKILLED immigrants who can help us compete in the world, but those are the ones who follow the rules, get in line to immigrate, and end up thinking they are fools when they see 20 million illegal border crossers get citizenship.

You need to get a clue.

You are draining your own economy yourselves. You are a nation of lawyers, actors and rock stars who wouldn't lift a finger for anything less than 6 figures.

That is why people who are not averse to actually making things with their own hands go to the us. Certainly, someone need to provide the necessities and clean up after a horde of lawyers, actors and rock stars.

 

[numinus]

The BS is just flowing from you. The illegal aliens are DRAINS on the economy. They go to the emergency rooms for regular health care, and don't pay. Their costs are shifted to others, and are part of what is driving up health care costs. The ones who come here and have anchor babies immediately are eligible, and cash in, on section 8 housing, food stamps, free legal aid, discounts at universities not available to american citizens, medicaid - on and on and on.

LOL. Sounds like your regular american to me. Except maybe university.

Have you looked at the composition of students in technical courses like the sciences and engineering? When was the last time you saw a programmer with a degree in computer programming or a factory supervisor with a degree in mech engg? Are you even aware that american hs students are far inferior to those of itty-bitty singapore?

School usually gets in the way of sports and showbiz superstardom.

They don't bear the slightest resemblance to the euro immigrants. Those immigrants came legally, were screened, were allowed in on a measured basis, assimilated quickly, provided needed skills, and wanted nothing more than to become an American, not just a "u.s. citizen.".

Really!?

Tell me -- did they ask permission from the native americans when they landed in the continent?

What ignorant nonsense!

The illegal aliens came here ILLEGALLY in an uncontrolled wave of millions of people, are NOT providing needed skills, don't speak english and most never will, are here to exploit the system, and would laugh at the idea that they would become Americans. There are so many that they are creating a sub-nation in the southwest.

There is an infallible way to determine the lie in this statement. An illegal immigrant couldn't possibly remain in the country without a job to support them.

 

[PLC1]

You are confusing two very different issues. A wealthy nation like the us will attract illegal immigrants as well as drugs as surely as **** attracts flies. It has something to do with the immutable law of supply and demand, I think. However, one has nothing to do with the other.

Of course a wealthy nation like the US will attract illegal aliens. That is why we must secure our border and have some control over who does and does not get to come here.

The one, illegal immigration, and the other, gangs, most certainly do have to do with each other when gangs like the MS 13 sneak across our borders and establish their gangs here. We already have enough gangs. Let's screen out the ones wanting to come here from south of the border.

For a moment there, I thought you were describing americans. Most americans fit the description, certainly!

Except perhaps the 'abysmal wages' thing. Americans would rather stay unemployed (and feed off welfare) than be caught dead doing menial tasks.

Which goes back to the reason why illegal immigrants flock to the us.



They are certainly qualified to do manual labor -- something that an american with the same 'qualification' wouldn't imagine of doing -- except perhaps at 'trades people' rates.

Exactly. Illegal immigration depresses wages to the point that Americans won't do manual labor any more. We used to. I remember doing manual labor, working in the field, and being darned glad to earn $1.25 to $2.00 an hour at a time when gasoline sold for 25 cents a gallon. Would Americans be willing to do manual labor for the equivalent of eight gallons of gasoline per hour? That would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 an hour, wouldn't it? I think they would. If not, then we seriously need to rethink our welfare state.

Come to think of it, we need to rethink the welfare state anyway, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Andy]

You need to get over your prejudice.

The fact is, the majority of illegals came to the us in search of a better life, and are willing to work to get just that -- given a decent chance. Unlike most american citizens who are looking for government hand-outs.

Haven't you noticed that obesity is becoming a problem with americans? It probably wouldn't be that way if they did decent work.

Why didn't I think of that. Americans are fat, therefore illegals should be given amnesty. Here I thought your insanity responses were limited to economic issues.

 

[numinus]

Of course a wealthy nation like the US will attract illegal aliens. That is why we must secure our border and have some control over who does and does not get to come here.

The one, illegal immigration, and the other, gangs, most certainly do have to do with each other when gangs like the MS 13 sneak across our borders and establish their gangs here. We already have enough gangs. Let's screen out the ones wanting to come here from south of the border.

Securing the border would not solve gang-related crimes.

Exactly. Illegal immigration depresses wages to the point that Americans won't do manual labor any more. We used to. I remember doing manual labor, working in the field, and being darned glad to earn $1.25 to $2.00 an hour at a time when gasoline sold for 25 cents a gallon. Would Americans be willing to do manual labor for the equivalent of eight gallons of gasoline per hour? That would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 an hour, wouldn't it? I think they would. If not, then we seriously need to rethink our welfare state.

Come to think of it, we need to rethink the welfare state anyway, but that's a topic for another thread.

But that how it works in a capitalist society. There is competition not only in the prices of goods but also in the prices of labor.

And what happens if a business can't compete, hmmm? It dies, doesn't it?