Obama warns auto companies.

TOTAL SLIGHT OF HAND TO TRY AN FOOL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE (not working... we're hip to it now).:)

You're "hip" to it now? What are you, some holdover 60's Hippie re-tread that did way too much LSD back in the day?

It's good to know that you have absolutely no perspective of historical events. Conservatives have been trying since at least the mid 90's to get the House Financial Services Committee to re-impose regulations on Fannie, Freddy, Ginnie, and the rest of the banking interests in America, but nooooo, they couldn't be bothered to do that, because it would be "racist". That's why the entire CBC has consistently voted as a block to stop any re-regulation.

Anyone who even tries to claim that this is a "Republican" mess hasn't been paying attention, but if it makes you feel better to engage in petty Party politics than to actually strive toward a solution to the problem, knock yourself out. That's usually what those of limited mental acuity do, which is why our modern system of suffrage needs to be seriously overhauled. We'll continue to give silly people their "bread and circus's", but we just won't allow them to vote, and the rest of us will continue to eschew the "bread and circus's" and instead work toward really fixing the mess.
 
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But Obama is warning auto companies that "the American people's patience is running out." He says the automakers should "seize on this opportunity" to come up with a plan to make their companies sustainable.

Let me play devil's advocate on this one. Obama knows the car companies can never bail themselves out - right? Everybody with a brain knows that. There is not a scenario under the sun is going to save GM and Chrysler. That's a fact.

But the American people - especially the majority of the Obama voters don't know this - they think Obama is somehow going to save the car companies.

To me, this is a politically smart move by Obama. He gives the auto companies a fair warning - everyone heard it on TV. Now, when March 31 rolls around and the car companies haven't done squat - and the economy (plus many of the people) begin to realize we've got bigger problems than Detroit....

Then Obama has political cover to say, "I told you so... you were given a fair chance, and you blew it." Now he looks like a President with conviction and determination to keep his word. And so the car companies can now go bankrupt and neither Obama nor his Administration have any blood on their hands.

Politics is like poker... it is more than just having good cards, its how you play the entire game that counts. Obama just made a good political bluff when he got dealt a bad hand. :rolleyes:
 
To me, this is a politically smart move by Obama. He gives the auto companies a fair warning - everyone heard it on TV. Now, when March 31 rolls around and the car companies haven't done squat - and the economy (plus many of the people) begin to realize we've got bigger problems than Detroit....

Then Obama has political cover to say, "I told you so... you were given a fair chance, and you blew it." Now he looks like a President with conviction and determination to keep his word. And so the car companies can now go bankrupt and neither Obama nor his Administration have any blood on their hands.
Not all bankruptcy's are created equal....

Bush approved bailout money for GM and Chrysler with the caveat that they turn things around and become sustainable/profitable by April fools day - when Obama will be in office.

If Obama does as you suggest and cuts them off of further bailouts, they will be forced to repay the loans. This changes the whole situation for the two auto makers. No longer can they file for chapter 11 and reorganize while remaining in business, they will be forced to file chapter 7, completely close up shop, and liquidate all their assets (machinery, buildings, property, et all) to repay the loans.

If anyone has played a shrewd hand, its Bush. He's forcing Obama's hand on this issue by making him be the one to put GM and Chrysler out of business forever, or, keep them in business by going back on Bush's deal and continuing to funnel money to unsustainable/unprofitable businesses.
 
Not all bankruptcy's are created equal....

Bush approved bailout money for GM and Chrysler with the caveat that they turn things around and become sustainable/profitable by April fools day - when Obama will be in office.

If Obama does as you suggest and cuts them off of further bailouts, they will be forced to repay the loans. This changes the whole situation for the two auto makers. No longer can they file for chapter 11 and reorganize while remaining in business, they will be forced to file chapter 7, completely close up shop, and liquidate all their assets (machinery, buildings, property, et all) to repay the loans.

If anyone has played a shrewd hand, its Bush. He's forcing Obama's hand on this issue by making him be the one to put GM and Chrysler out of business forever, or, keep them in business by going back on Bush's deal and continuing to funnel money to unsustainable/unprofitable businesses.

Although it's another brilliant political move by Bush, it's still a bad move socially. Socialism sucks, and unlike Bush, Obama can break every promise and the lemmings will still follow. I will still enjoy talking to Obama supporters about his corporate welfare. I love it when Obama supports things that Liberals claim to hate.
 
TOTAL SLIGHT OF HAND TO TRY AN FOOL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE (not working... we're hip to it now).:)

The statement Democrats took control of Congress almost 2 years ago is one of the intentionally misleading arguments Republicans often try to float to an all to often uninformed/under informed public.

The fact is the Republicans in Congress have perfected their Party into the OBSTRUCTIONIST PARTY. They've actually done it so well I recommend for clarity sake they just go ahead and actually change their name.

TRUTH: A mere majority means almost nothing... especially with a President on the side of the minority.

TRUTH: It takes not 51 votes but 60 votes to break a Republican (The Obstructionist Party) filibuster and vote... so legislation can be sent up.

TRUTH: Even after that (if some in the Obstructionist Party did break off and allow a vote) then the Republican (Obstructionist) President vetoes (rejects) it and sends it back to Congress where they then would need 66 votes to override that Obstruction.

Things will move better than before now with a Democratic President and both Houses of Congress being even more Democratic. While the Democratic Party still does not have a filibuster proof majority it is very close and has a President in it's camp with a brain.

Add to that the public pressure on the Republicans that are now seen in the light of creating much if not all of this mess and I'm hopeful progress can now be made to benefit the regular American working hard to try and get ahead.

So you claim basically, that the democrats have been trying very very hard to fix everything, but just couldn't because the republicans stopped them.

Ok, Top Gun, I'll buy that... if you can show me evidence.

You should be able to have a massive list of bills that would have fixed everything, but were killed by republicans in congress, or Bush. Do you have any? Do you have even one? (hint: no, no you don't).
 
Not all bankruptcy's are created equal....

Bush approved bailout money for GM and Chrysler with the caveat that they turn things around and become sustainable/profitable by April fools day - when Obama will be in office.

If Obama does as you suggest and cuts them off of further bailouts, they will be forced to repay the loans. This changes the whole situation for the two auto makers. No longer can they file for chapter 11 and reorganize while remaining in business, they will be forced to file chapter 7, completely close up shop, and liquidate all their assets (machinery, buildings, property, et all) to repay the loans.

If anyone has played a shrewd hand, its Bush. He's forcing Obama's hand on this issue by making him be the one to put GM and Chrysler out of business forever, or, keep them in business by going back on Bush's deal and continuing to funnel money to unsustainable/unprofitable businesses.

Call it what you may, I think Bush just screwed the American people, hopefully for the last time. Congress would not come to the automaker's defense, Bush could have said, "The Constitution gives Congress the authority to spend money - and Congress has spoken. Even if I wanted to spend TARP money on the auto companies, it would be a breach of trust to the American taxpayer. Furthermore, I refuse to open the TARP money to every company who is facing bankruptcy."

That would have been the honorable thing to do for a departing President. Throw yourself on the hand grenade and give the next President a break. Bush has no honor.

Other than that, I don't see how Chapter 11 will help GM or Chrysler. Does anybody really think that these companies can somehow recover? How can they suddenly start making cars that American's want to buy rather than a Toyota or Honda? Even in good times GM had been loosing market share - and I don't see how they are going to get more market share back again in Chapter 11 even with reduced overhead.

The Detroit automakers should have changed directions back in the 1990's - like consolidating into one brand and and going to the wall with the UAW. Remember how Reagan handled the airport traffic control workers? Close down everything until the UAW finally cried "Uncle".

But those opportunities are lost and gone. Now it's Chapter 7 - and we wait until the next generation of American entrepreneurs figure out how to out-compete the foreign automakers.
 
I think Bush just screwed the American people.
You are preaching to the choir. Worst part is.... his "Failed Policy" of Socialism isn't seen as a "Failed Policy" by the Democrats... Thats one of the few policies of his they agree with.
I don't see how Chapter 11 will help GM or Chrysler.
Because they can reduce their legacy costs to be competitive. For example, GM has 96,000 employees and over a MILLION retirees. They are paying 1 million people who produce nothing for the company, while at the same time, paying the actual workers $30 more an hour (including all benefits) than their conterparts at foreign car makers.

Chapter 11 can help... Chapter 7 will screw all 1.1 million out of a job.
How can they suddenly start making cars that American's want to buy rather than a Toyota or Honda?
That line about Americans not wanting to buy American cars is horse shat...

If GM, Chrysler and Ford ALL made exact duplicates of the top selling foreign cars.... they would STILL have to add $2500 on top of every vehicle for legacy costs. So its not that American's don't want American cars... We can get similar foreign cars for less, so thats what bargain hunters do.
 
If GM, Chrysler and Ford ALL made exact duplicates of the top selling foreign cars.... they would STILL have to add $2500 on top of every vehicle for legacy costs. So its not that American's don't want American cars... We can get similar foreign cars for less, so that's what bargain hunters do.

And who agreed to that contract? The Detroit automakers, of course. I have no sympathy for stupidity.

Labor costs is not the only reason they are in trouble... we all know the grizzly facts. I want to see Chapter 7 just to punish any American company who operates in a country that thrives on capitalism.

Everybody else plays by the rules - Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 - hey, the government has no business making that decision. I will hear no excuses or bleeding-heart pleas about "lost jobs". Let them eat rice - that's what the competition eats!
 
Fallschirmjager;79343]You're "hip" to it now? What are you, some holdover 60's Hippie re-tread that did way too much LSD back in the day?

Exactly... except for the LSD. It's called experience.
It's good to know that you have absolutely no perspective of historical events. Conservatives have been trying since at least the mid 90's to get the House Financial Services Committee to re-impose regulations on Fannie, Freddy, Ginnie, and the rest of the banking interests in America, but nooooo, they couldn't be bothered to do that, because it would be "racist". That's why the entire CBC has consistently voted as a block to stop any re-regulation.

OH PLEEEEEEEASE!:D

You must be new. I've posted (many have posted) example after example after example of the CRAZY CONSERVATIVE DEREGULATION MACHINE!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDofbll86dY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMwh2LZA_zo

You're seriously, seriously now, going to say that the Republicans doing away with the Glass Steagall Act... the Gramm (as in McCain's chief economic advisor)-Leach-Bliley Act, also known as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act and all the other rampant deregulation done by the Republicans wasn't a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

You think because various people on both sides of the isle at one time or another saw possible problems with Fannie & Freddie that's the main story? COME ON!

But even if I play along with that lunacy just what then stopped the Republicans from changing anything they wanted during the Bush administration??? What having the Presidentcy and both Houses of Congress for 6 years not enough time?:eek:


Anyone who even tries to claim that this is a "Republican" mess hasn't been paying attention, but if it makes you feel better to engage in petty Party politics than to actually strive toward a solution to the problem, knock yourself out. That's usually what those of limited mental acuity do, which is why our modern system of suffrage needs to be seriously overhauled. We'll continue to give silly people their "bread and circus's", but we just won't allow them to vote, and the rest of us will continue to eschew the "bread and circus's" and instead work toward really fixing the mess.

WOW!... you are seriously lost in space my friend. Americans know we don't have time to play your silly smoke & mirrors game anymore... that's why they kicked you to the curb... not any of that other gibberish.

We have a full time job now just to keep the 100% documented GEORGE BUSH RECESSION from becoming the GEORGE BUSH DEPRESSION!

And it won't be easy with this incredible hole the Republicans left our country in... but at least we now have a leader in President-elect Obama that has a brain and actually cares about everyday hard working people.

George Bush = Worst President of all times since polling began for a reason... because it's TRUE!
 
Other than that, I don't see how Chapter 11 will help GM or Chrysler. Does anybody really think that these companies can somehow recover? How can they suddenly start making cars that American's want to buy rather than a Toyota or Honda? Even in good times GM had been loosing market share - and I don't see how they are going to get more market share back again in Chapter 11 even with reduced overhead.

We already covered this. GM is the number one car manufacture in the world. Even in the US, as we speak, it still is in second place. That's a ton of cars.

The question is not, nor has been, can they produce cars people want to buy. Clearly they are producing cars people want to buy.

The question is only, can they produce cars people want to buy, profitably. The answer right now is... no.

It's so strange that people here think that the issue is making cars people want to buy. That is not the issue. Look at the numbers. GM car are selling.

Then people act like, if only they made cars like the imports. Some of GMs cars are nearly carbon copies of imports, or imports are carbon copies of them. Compare a Malibu with a Camry. Same features, same cost, same horse power, same gas milage, same look, same size, same nearly everything. Minor differences yes, but generally the same.

Neither of these are the problem. The problem is simply this. The cost of labor is too high to sell the cars profitably. If GM doubled the amount of cars it sold, it still would be losing money because the cost of labor is too high. If GM somehow were to make their cars even more like imports, it still would be losing money because the cost of labor is too high.

The bottom line is this. GM pays $70 per hour of labor, compared to $40 some whatever that imports pay per hour of labor.

So what would filing Chapter 11 do for GM? It would allow them to force the unions to renegotiate their contract. Right now GM is contractually required to pay these higher prices for labor. To this point, UAW has refused to let them out of this contract.

By filing chapter 11, GM can either force the Unions to make new contracts, or simply close down plants, lay everyone off, and open them again later with new hires that are not unionized.

The Detroit automakers should have changed directions back in the 1990's - like consolidating into one brand and and going to the wall with the UAW. Remember how Reagan handled the airport traffic control workers? Close down everything until the UAW finally cried "Uncle".

I agree with everything but the consolidation. GM's successful history comes from having different company brands that were independent. When Chevy was crashing, Pontiac was doing well. When Cadillac was slumping, Buick was doing well. When Oldmobile was slow, Chevy was doing well.

This sparked innovation between different name plates because each was to make or break on it's own. It's sort of like having your eggs in multiple baskets. Unfortunately, since GM has taken direct control of each nameplate, we now have Buick looking Chevys, Chevy look GMCs, Pontiac looking Buicks. They need to actually undo some of their consolidation.

But those opportunities are lost and gone. Now it's Chapter 7 - and we wait until the next generation of American entrepreneurs figure out how to out-compete the foreign automakers.

Sadly, I don't think they will. The regulations, restrictions, controls, mandates and millions of miles of red tape, are nearly impossible for a startup company to be able to handle. That's why after the regulation boom of the 60s and 70s hit, most all independent car companies vanished, while the mega corporations like Ford, GM, and Chrysler survived.

It's actually an ironic twist of fate that the support for many regulations was to prevent supposedly out of control mega corporations, had the effect that only out of control mega corporations could exist. The regulations meant to restrict these massive businesses, actually gave them uncontested control of the market by hindering small businesses that have no way to get around the government controls.

I have some personal experience in this. There was (not sure if they still operate) an independent car maker in Ohio not even 10 years ago. They had a contract with the dealership I was working for service. We serviced these really neat luxury cars they built. In talking with the guy from that company, I wondered if they would become a large company and he explained that it would never happen because they only produce X number of cars a year, and that's it. If they produce more, they have to start complying with all the federal regulations that would put them out of business.

Granted that's one example and I have absolutely no proof whatsoever, and I admit it now. I looked high and low for any evidence of the car company and have found nothing. I know they exist cause I worked on them.

Anyway, the point I'm making is this. Unless regulations and controls are reduced, there is no way a young startup company will be able to survive the federal gauntlet of rules and regulations. Of course, if someone dares to propose such a thing, undoubtedly the idiots on the left will blame everything wrong in the universe on it. Just look at Top Guns post where a completely unrelated deregulation bill is blamed for sub-prime loans, which it had zero effect on.
 
OMG!:eek: Obama, the same nut who thinks that properly inflating tires can save gasoline (everyone knows that running tires half flat is a super idea, you know) has warned the auto industry that they have to come up with a plan to make their companies sustainable, or the government won't keep bailing them out. Darned liberals, anyway, where do they get this stuff? Every true conservative knows that the government has an unlimited supply of money to keep bailing out unprofitable businesses.

On the other hand, Genseca's observation:



is right on target.

Maybe, just maybe, there is a connection here: If the auto industry has to become self sustaining, then government subsidies to them would be one less drain on the taxpayer dollars.

Perhaps, the same could be said for agribusiness and pharmaceuticals, but, then, that's another story.

Both the industry and the government need to get their fiscal houses in order. I see no indication that the government is likely to do so any time in the near future, as fiscal conservatives, you know, the real conservatives who believe in limited government and fiscal responsibility, are about as abundant in Washington as the ivory billed woodpecker. We had none of them running in '08, so the continued policy of deficit spending that became so popular during the so called "conservative" administration we just suffered through, is not likely to be a part of the "change" we've heard so much about.

*cough* Ron Paul ran in 2008.. not to more then a whisper from critics in liberal media of course.. but ... he did run.
 
You must be new. I've posted (many have posted) example after example after example of the CRAZY CONSERVATIVE DEREGULATION MACHINE! [/COLOR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDofbll86dY

First, I am humored by you posting a link detailing the Keating Five, a scandal which included four democrats, and one democrat with a republican badge, John McCain who has opposed republicans more often than voted with them. (and I personally can't stand).

So the republican deregulation machine was 5 democrats involved in a saving and loan scandal. Right.

You're seriously, seriously now, going to say that the Republicans doing away with the Glass Steagall Act... the Gramm (as in McCain's chief economic advisor)-Leach-Bliley Act, also known as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act and all the other rampant deregulation done by the Republicans wasn't a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:


As everyone knows, or by now should know, is that the current melt down has to do with sub-prime loans. A bunch of banks made loans to people who could not afford them, and the result was massive foreclosures that crashed some banks. Now Top Gun here wants to claim that the Glass Steagall Act would have prevented this. Is that true? Let's find out.

Now, what is Glass Steagall Act about? Well it covered FDIC and regulation of savings account interest, and placed some controls on speculation. However there was only one prevision that was changed since it was signed into law.

Glass Steagall Act prevented any banking institution from owning another financial institution. This provision was removed. Now think with me here.... what does one bank owning another have to do with sub-prime loans? Um... nothing. So if this had not been repealed, what effect would this have had on sub-prime loans? Zero.

Now the liberals here want to claim that the evil Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, was part of the republican deregulation machine, and caused all this. Is that true? Let's do a bit more research.

First, the GLB Act for short, was passed by 90 to 4 in the Senate, and 362 to 57 in the house. 193 democrats voted in favor of the bill. Further, Democrat Bill Clinton signed it immediately into law. Not exactly a republican only bill.

Second, what real effect did the bill have? It made it legal for one bank to purchase another. However, it still was under the direct control of the government through the Community Reinvestment Act, which must approve of any merger.

So what about these merger companies. Did they cause the melt down? Let's see. First example is Citibank and the Travelers Group, which formed CitiGroup. Is Citigroup part of the melt down? Nope, Citigroup just bought Wachovia, who on the other hand, would not be covered by the GLB Act.

Second, Wells Fargo Bank which bought Norwest. Were they part of the melt down? Nope. Interestingly Well Fargo bank, and Citigroup are right now fighting over Wachovia. So two successful banks that would have been stopped by GLB Act, are fighting over the crash of Wachovia that wouldn't be covered by the GLB Act.

I could go on, but the point is clear. If GLB Act had never been passed, the banks that are in trouble would be right where they already are. The banks effected by GLB Act, are doing fine.

Interestingly, Bill Clinton himself weighted in on this. Although I do not consider what he *is* saying really credible depending on how you define "is", but some here still hold him in high regards. Maybe you should listen to his statement:

"I don't see that signing that bill had anything to do with the current crisis. Indeed, one of the things that has helped stabilize the current situation as much as it has is the purchase of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America, which was much smoother than it would have been if I hadn't signed that bill ... On the Glass-Steagall thing, like I said, if you could demonstrate to me that it was a mistake, I'd be glad to look at the evidence."

Ironicaly, for once he's right. Bank of America, another one that would be covered under the GLB Act, is also one of the banks doing perfectly fine.

You think because various people on both sides of the isle at one time or another saw possible problems with Fannie & Freddie that's the main story? COME ON!


Maxine Water "We've been through a dozen hearing where we were trying to fix something that wasn't broke. Mr. Chairmen, we do not have a crisis at Freddie Mac and in particular at Fannie Mae, under the outstanding leadership of Frank Raines"

And it won't be easy with this incredible hole the Republicans left our country in... but at least we now have a leader in President-elect Obama that has a brain and actually cares about everyday hard working people.

Sorry to edit out your shrill ranting and raving.

Back to the facts. The sub-prime melt down can be easily followed back to a change in the Community Reinvestment Act that pushed for minority lending, even if they were below the general requirements for lending.

The push for more minority home ownership, came from a small tiny "grass-roots" group known as ACORN, who sent their young smart public-interest lawyer to lobby for them, who's name was Barack Obama.

For example, Obama, under the support of ACORN, sued Citibank for not giving subprime loans to minorities.

The resulting change in the CRA, allowed for the securitization of sub-prime loans, sold by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The first to take advantage of this change was Bear Sterns, which as you know was the very first bank to crash.

But these changes were in 1995, four full years before the GLB Act of 1999.

Any questions?
 
So you claim basically, that the democrats have been trying very very hard to fix everything, but just couldn't because the republicans stopped them.

Ok, Top Gun, I'll buy that... if you can show me evidence.

You should be able to have a massive list of bills that would have fixed everything, but were killed by republicans in congress, or Bush. Do you have any? Do you have even one? (hint: no, no you don't).

Hey neo-myster... IT WAS THE REPUBLICANS THAT HAD THE TOTAL CONTROL FOR SIX STRAIGHT YEARS! IT WAS THEY WHO WOULD BE BRINGING THINGS FORWARD BECAUSE THEY COULD PASS THEM IF THEY WANTED CHANGE.

But the only CHANGE they wanted was even MORE DEREGULATION & LESS OVERSIGHT!

All the Republican's did their whole time in power was WHORE US OUT! Bush running around trying to force through his way of Stock Market Social Security... even just before it's total collapse.

John McCain himself even during this last campaign was running all over the place pushing the total deregulation of the healthcare industry and other sectors.
:eek:

Look up economic morons in the dictionary and they now have a picture of a big red, white & blue abstract elephant.
 
Andy;79598]First, I am humored by you posting a link detailing the Keating Five, a scandal which included four democrats, and one democrat with a republican badge, John McCain who has opposed republicans more often than voted with them. (and I personally can't stand).

So the republican deregulation machine was 5 democrats involved in a saving and loan scandal. Right.

I posted Keating because that was a situation in John McCain's home state and it was a Savings & Loan SCANDAL. The Dems in that scandal get no pass by me. But the highly DOCUMENTED OVERALL DEREGULATION push was undeniably a Republican maneuver.

As everyone knows, or by now should know, is that the current melt down has to do with sub-prime loans. A bunch of banks made loans to people who could not afford them, and the result was massive foreclosures that crashed some banks. Now Top Gun here wants to claim that the Glass Steagall Act would have prevented this.

The fact is that only something like 12% of the bad paper on mortgages was do to low income lending. The other 78% had nothing to do with qualification standards at all. And the fact also is that it was seen at the time on both sides of the isle as a good thing to open up the housing market on that's small 12% to help create neighborhood ownership especially in distressed areas.

Glass Steagall Act prevented any banking institution from owning another financial institution. This provision was removed. Now think with me here.... what does one bank owning another have to do with sub-prime loans? Um... nothing. So if this had not been repealed, what effect would this have had on sub-prime loans? Zero.

That's because you are running away to your own conclusion and thus leaving out building blocks of the problem.

When the banking industry is more broken up (as in not as much a monopoly) and when there is more oversight (regulation) there are less serious hits and when the hits come they are more spread out. Simply put banks that follow tougher standards and/or choose to employee tougher standards don't take all of the hard hits nearly as much.

It's true that the housing market dropped and that helped trigger a problem. But the safeguards for if that happens had been removed and that was a very bad thing indeed. Plus... Wall Street was completely off the hook with plain old greed. It was a perfect storm scenario.


So we now we will address these problems with a new and better TEAM! There's no doubt Americans should be proud of themselves for electing President Obama.

Because there's no pride in any of this...


Republicans understanding of the RECESSION we were in and still pushing for more DEREGULATION::eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NVjq2py7BA

Gut it all... gut it all... Republicans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycPJr7YWmQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qRn8kE33Ws

And the Andy myth busted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=derLpYLWrMI
 
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