1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Discuss politics - join our community by registering for free here! HOP - the political discussion forum

Oil: Open question to Liberals

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by Andy, Jun 22, 2008.

  1. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,497
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    48
    In dealing with the high cost of oil, everyone seems to have thoughts on what to do.

    Constitutionalists, and Free Market Conservatives, seem to have this view.

    The high prices are cause by supply and demand on a world market, that we have forced ourselves into by not getting our own oil.

    Thus: the solution is to drill for oil in our own land, thereby producing our own oil, allowing us to reduce or eliminate imported oil, and at the same time, increase the supply of crude oil, lowering price. In other words, unshackle our oil industry, and just let them do what they do.

    Liberals, or socialists if you like, seem to have this view (based on my discussions with people on this forum):

    We should shoot Oil company CEOs, raise taxes, start litigation against everyone we can, have a socialist take-over like Venezuela which is in worse shape than us, or model ourselves after Europe which pays twice as much for gas, than we do currently.

    Question: Am I getting this right? If not how? and if so, how does this help anything?
     
  2. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,009
    Likes Received:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    land of 10,000 lakes and 2 senators again
    well the Shoot the Oil Company CEO's would be a good start, but I have a long list of overpaid CEO in other fields to take out as well....

    I think that looking into possible Illegal Price Fixing, and or Market Trading is a good idea. If it is there it must end, and is not part of a Free market. If it is not, well then good, it keeps them on there toes not to try it, and at least helps rule out one theory.

    Personally I think its not a Drill Drill Drill issue like some . Fact is Drilling does not help now, and it is a short term fix. Drill in ANWAR? really and when will we start getting that oil? not for a while? And it also does fix the main problem for the long term, that we are dependent on a Finite Resource . And as much as we would love to drill evry square foot of the US for Oil, we are not going to have enough to go forever, leveing us stuck with the Middle east and others. I increase in the MPG Standards of 3mpg ( and I base this of a older estimate, so not sure of current) would have a far greater impact that drilling in Anwar. Companies can make better cars, and not at the expense of Safety as they sometimes Claim. Fact is Toyota and Honda more or less smoke the US companies in MPG , and they are better quality and safe. I know some people want to drive there Hummer, and they want to drive there V8 Car with 14 mpg...but we don't have some god given right to be excessive just because we want to. I know, I love some of those cars as well, but its not 1960, and the muscle car does not actuly make your penis larger, so its time we started moving on. ( new Elect car can do 125, looks sharp as hell, and gets like 200+ miles per charge (3 hour charge)

    If the Oil companies want to drill, fine, let them put out there plan and we can always look to make sure is Safe, environmentally safe, and what we really want to do. A Oil Rig in Mount Rushmore is not going to work, I dont care how much oil is under it. Oil in Yellowstone , do bad. And since Oil Companies are making such huge profits while the rest suffer, They want to drill , they get to play by our Rules. Personally I could really care less if the US said you know what , we are doing the oil our-self. If Oil was non Profit I think we would see a huge drop in US price, and I do think the Government can do ti right if they wanted to. I think the "Free Market" if you really think it is that, is failing us , and that Oil and Energy is to important to be left to the CEO's of a Few Companies , when it effects so very much of evrything in the US.
     
  3. Pandora

    Pandora Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,790
    Likes Received:
    257
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    The people's republic of Eugene
    Drilling does not help tomorrow but it does help down the road, 4-8 years down the road the hard work pays off.

    With that mentality a person would not think college is a good idea, all that money and time invested and you wont see any pay offs for 4-8 years (if you are lucky and land a job right after graduation)

    But we send hundreds of thousands of people to liberal minded colleges every year. Maybe we should tell them to stay home, don’t bother. Your hard work won’t pay off for years, it’s not worth it.
     
  4. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    6,245
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    ={CaLiCo}= HQ
    Nobody is claiming that its a short term fix - You cannot even provide a realistic suggestion for a short term fix.
    If you ignore every other point in my post answer this question:
    What can replace Oil?
    The answer will likely be suggesting alternative forms of POWER GENERATION but very little Oil is used for generating power. So make sure you specify what can replace Oil - based on what Oil is actually used for.
    This does nothing to limit demand, in fact, if we get better mileage and the price goes down - people can afford to buy more gas so the demand goes up.
    Its granted by the Constitution.
    The Tesla Roadster, one of my favorites. How many does Al Gore own? He doesn't own any EV's... Not even the cool ones.
    If the Enviro-Left spent as much time, effort, energy and money supporting and promoting Alternatives as they spend Propagandizing and Destroying America - we would all be driving EV's by now.
    That sounds reasonable.... but its moot.
    Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort.
    So when they are losing money while the rest of us are dong well - then they can play by their own rules?
    Government get MORE from every $1.00 of gas you buy than the Oil companies get. Government is the enemy.
    Openly advocating government control of the US Oil Corporations.... You truly have no concept of how much control the Government currently has over these corporations, how much government interference has placed us in this predicament and certainly no concept of their proposals to get us out.

    Whats most frustrating is, nothing I say gets through. Supporting Democrats WILL LEAD to gas at $9 a gallon. Energy bills quadruple that of what we pay today..... All because the Lefties don't like OIL. If Oil had a replacement, we would be pursuing it, there is no such replacement.
     
  5. SW85

    SW85 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2007
    Messages:
    528
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Maryland
    Drilling would only be useful to suppress oil prices while we work on alternative energies -- i.e., building new nuclear plants or somesuch. It makes no sense to drill when no plans to pursue alternative energy supplies are in place.

    It would not even be able to eliminate our dependence on foreign countries even in the short-term.
     
  6. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,497
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    48
    So you believe that shooting the oil company CEOs would improve the oil industry and reduce cost? Explain how?

    There have been a couple of past investigations. In all cases, nothing was found. Market trading would be impossible to end. You can't go to every single country in the world and demand they stop market trading.

    According to the US geological survey, with current known oil reserves in the US, we could easily be free of imported oil for 57 years (or more). Also, there is nothing to indicate oil in a finite resource (other than conventional wisdom. It must be true because everyone says it must be true). Private citizen land owners are drilling on their own property and selling crude oil. It can be done, it's just a matter of doing it.

    So your theory is, that drilling and pumping more oil will not increase the supply and reduce the price of crude oil? Or that since it will take a few years to get the wells dug and oil flowing, that we just... shouldn't?

    So your claim is that somehow by increase the unconstitutional CAFE standard by 3 MPG, something which hasn't helped oil prices in the past, won't be implemented for 5 to 10 years, and is completely ignored by many auto manufactures, will somehow reduce oil prices now, even though it hasn't in any other country in the world? Explain this.

    The oil market is a free market. Anyone in the world can produce oil and sell it. That system has not failed. What has failed is our oil industry to produce domestic oil. The reason our oil industry has failed to produce oil, is because of our government preventing the building of refineries, and preventing exploration, and preventing drilling. The failure is ours. Not the free market.

    So your theory is that socializing the oil industry will work when it hasn't in Venezuela, Mexico, and every other country in which it has been tried, and has resulted in high prices for oil in each case? Explain why.
     
  7. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,497
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    48
    According the the US geological survey, there is enough domestic oil to eliminate imported oil. Further, there is an estimated trillion barrels of oil, not yet discovered, simply because we have prevented oil exploration.

    So your theory is that unless we have a plans to pursue alternative energy... drilling and exploring for oil will not produce more crude oil and will not increase supply and will not reduce imported oil, and will not reduce oil prices? Explain why.

    Further, we have pursued alternative energy everywhere. We have bio-crap fuels, we have ethanol scams, we have wind farms that can't replace anything, we have some hydropower that eco-nutz are screaming about, we have geothermal where it can be used, we have H2scams all over the place. What do you mean we don't have alternative fuels being pursued? Explain.
     
  8. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Good post. I think the salient point was that oil is a finite resource and we should be using our vast intellectual and scientific research power to find alternatives instead of subsidizing oil companies. The idea that a highly techonological society has to keep burning hydrocarbons and polluting their air to haul people around is ludicrous. We have all kinds of technology we're not using to their full benefit, let's start subsidizing those things and solve the world's oil problem in such a way that WE are the ones making money and selling transportation solutions to the rest of the world.

    How much technological innovation could we afford for the $5000 per second we're spending on our Middle East war? We need to stop trying to conquer the world with our military and do it instead with our technological advances.
     
  9. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,009
    Likes Received:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    land of 10,000 lakes and 2 senators again

    did you read the whole post? I said that I was open to drilling, but it does not solve the problem now, and suggested other means as well to reduce oil consumption, rather then just thinking we can just keep drilling for more. And Also Drilling does not meet the long term issue as well.
     
  10. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,497
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    48
    This statement bugged me so much, I have to respond to it again. It's just such as plain stupid ignorant statement, I can't let it go.

    You know, in other parts of the world, it's amazing, but the public actually looks at corporations as being beneficial. They actually see the CEO as being an asset to the country by providing good paying jobs, products people want to buy, and bringing prosperity to the country.

    The people of China, who lived under socialism for 50 some years, would laugh at us for our stupidity at wanting to socialize oil. After living through a socialized economy where 1 out of every 3 people lived in poverty, a poverty that U.S. poor people couldn't even fathom, the idea that we would replicate their horror here, must be the source of great amusement for them.

    But more than that... in an alternate universe, lets say we do round up the CEOs and shoot them... then what? Now that you don't have any CEOs who know the industry, who's going to build and grow the business? Do you know how to run an oil company? No? Well great, neither do I. Do you know what happens to companies that don't have good CEOs? They crash. They fail.

    So instead of bickering about the cost of fuel, there won't be in fuel. Instead of crying about the price going up 5¢, which is about $1 dollar for my 20 gallon tank, only closed stations with no price listed. Who ya going to blame then? This is your idea of an improvement? Darn those rich CEOs... oh wait, we shot them... now what?

    It's just like Mugabe in Zimbabwe, who had the same dumb idea. Let's go shoot the evil white rich farmers, and give the farms to all our peoples. So the peoples ran around shooting and running off the white farmers. Good idea! Sounds just like our CEO plan...

    Except, one minor problem. The peoples didn't have a freking clue how to farm. Instead of paying for food, there wasn't any food. Darn the white rich farmers... oh wait we ran them off and killed them... now what? The markets empty, the food riots started, the economy was collapsing. Now he's begging the white farmers to come back... well duh.

    Oh but this brilliant plan will work here? What is wrong with you screwed up people! GET A CLUE! How many times do we have to learn the same stupid lesson over and over before you stop wanting to try it again? Does anyone on the left actually think?!
     
  11. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,497
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    48
    How does subsidizing any other alternative energy help reduce the cost of oil? Or do you believe the high cost of oil is not a problem?

    We are subsidizing alternative fuels. We should not be subsidizing anything. None of the alternative energy sources will help anything. There war has absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to do with the topic of this thread.
     
  12. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,009
    Likes Received:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    land of 10,000 lakes and 2 senators again
    As for shooting the oil CEO, sure we dont pay them then. and realy I just want to do it, never said it was going to fix the oil issue.

    If nothing is found then so be it, like I said, look and watch for it. If we do find some, then more power to us. Simply not finding anything yet, does not mean you dont watch it.

    If you cant just say , Oil is Finite , then live in your fairlytail land. You can debate how much there is, you can not with half a brain suggest that there is unlimited oil in the earth. Maybe I can just start thinking my gas tank in my car is unlimited as well and will come true. Also I guess you think if there is oil, you just simply stick something in the ground and you get it. There are different types of oil, there some oil is close to the surface and easy to get at, some is very tricky and cost alot more to drill for. The middle east is blessed with good oil thats easy to get at, that does not mean we are.

    and again , please please tell me where I said don't drill for oil? Wait ...no in fact I think I actually said we could drill for oil. I mean when I look at my words, its almost like I said if they wish to drill , then we can look at there plans and decided if we feel it meets the standards we want for safety, Environmental impact, and other factors.

    Ok I will make it very simple for you. If people drive cars that use less gas....there is less Demand for gas.( given same population) I know , it was hard, I had to do a lot of thinking on that one. And if your issue is that the outo companies dont follow it, well here is a great idea...Make them. Drug dealers dont follow the law. Its novel I know, but oddly when you make rules and people dont follow them, you make them, not just say get rid of the rule then.

    Oil is a Free Market? what planet is that on? Since when was OPEC a Free market? Oil is a few companies who bought up the others, and OPEC...Its not a free market.

    So why could it work here? because we would do it better and smarter. You know a lot of things don't work when tried by others, and then someone does it better and smarter, and it works. Exxon and all them can do what they do, maybe the government just says we will do it ourselves as well, and compete with them, and not need to worry about record profits.

    If people stopped doing evrything new becuse someone else tried it and it did not work, we would all be cavemen still.
     
  13. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,009
    Likes Received:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    land of 10,000 lakes and 2 senators again
    yes thats, why I am sure he lefties all know that it was something called SARCASM. I am not realy thinking we should line up the CEO's in the street and giving them a double tap.
     
  14. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    6,245
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    ={CaLiCo}= HQ
    You are mixing several different things as though they are one in the same...
    1. Oil is Finite, no argument. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for what we use it for. Even replacing ALL gasoline, diesel and liquid burning hydrocarbon engines would not reduce our need for oil in other sectors.
    2. You say we should find alternatives. WHY do you focus on POWER GENERATION and not the things we actually use OIL for? Like plastics, lubrications, Medical ointments etc.
    3. Subsidies. Oil Companies pay far more in taxes than the government gives back in any subsidies. Government also earns more from the sale of gas than do oil companies.

    :eek:
    Your hyperbole is showing.
     
  15. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,497
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    48
    So this won't fix anything, you just want to do it. Ok, so you claim to support a completely pointless action that doesn't solve anything. Now everyone will understand why I am not a liberal or a democrap.

    1. Oil wells considered empty, have been found to refill themselves. This includes the middle east, Russia, and even in the US.

    2. Oil is likely created near the earth mantle, not near fossils. The pressure and temperature needed to create Hydro-Carbons (oil), is not found near fossil, but rather near the earths crust, and likely is a continuing process.

    3. In all cases, the worlds known reserves have been increasing, not decreasing.

    Oil is not finite. It's renewable.

    Right, so when CAFE was first introduced, the demand for oil must have dropped a ton, compared to demand prior to it... right? But it didn't... right. So explain how it will work THIS time, when it didn't the last few times?

    Really? So if you live in Canada, and drilling an oil well in your back yard, you can't sell that barrel of oil for as much or little as you choose? Or Sweden? Or Russia? or anywhere on the blasted planet? Please explain.

    Really... like say the post office? USPS lost $676 million in 2002. Of course we won't have corporate CEOs, instead we'll have government appointed socialists in charge like Mr. Jaffer who blew millions in tax payer money all over the country. Taking friends and family out to high class resturants where he blew $5000 just for the meal, and then added an $825 tip. Or the $12,000 he spent at an asian restaurant where he treated his wife and his limo driver. Or maybe the expensive diners with Warner Bro executives under the claim it was to build support for the 'new USPS stamp' program.

    Or maybe the Social Security system that's been fixed twice already by cutting benefits and increasing taxes, and will still go broke by 2014. $3.2 Trillion of our national debt is due to SS.

    Or maybe medicare which will be bankrupt by no later than 2019, and is permeated with fraud and mismanagement. Current plans are to reduce coverage and increase taxes, just like Social Security, and every single dumb socialist program created in the world today...

    Oh but I'm sure it will work here... just positive it will... perhaps you could show me one single socialist system that works?

    Yeah, and if we just keep taping feathers to our arms, and jumping off bridges in order to fly, it will work at some point... right? Socialism, does not, will not, never has, never did, at any point in the existence of humans on this planet, worked. Insanity is trying the same thing over again, and expecting a different result.
     
Loading...

Share This Page