Prison Reform

[Mr. Shaman]

Gee....whatta CONCEPT!!!​

"The review also reportedly recommends that the remaining prisoners should be taught vocational skills and classes in moderate Islam, to help re-integrate them into society."

"But President Obama has also said that the US is examining an alleged massacre of hundreds of prisoners who had surrendered to a US-backed warlord in Afghanistan in 2001.

Amid allegations that the Bush administration resisted efforts to investigate, he told officials to "collect the facts" surrounding the incident.

Reports of the alleged massacre first surfaced in 2002 but there has been no formal investigation."

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Gee....whatta CONCEPT!!!

Quote:​

"The review also reportedly recommends that the remaining prisoners should be taught vocational skills and classes in moderate Islam, to help re-integrate them into society."

Quote:​

"But President Obama has also said that the US is examining an alleged massacre of hundreds of prisoners who had surrendered to a US-backed warlord in Afghanistan in 2001.

Amid allegations that the Bush administration resisted efforts to investigate, he told officials to "collect the facts" surrounding the incident.

Reports of the alleged massacre first surfaced in 2002 but there has been no formal investigation."
​

​

Yep, that would be quite a 'SHOCK' to treat the locals/natives in a humane way. I mean, it is so easily to identify the enemy...

they don't look/or act like us...R I G H T ​

 

[TheFranklinParty]

Sheriff Joe has a lot of great ideas on Prison Reform...vocational and basic reading/writing skills are a big part of his plan to reduce the return of inmates after they have been released. I'm currently reading his book Joe's Law - I'd recommend it.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Sheriff Joe has a lot of great ideas on Prison Reform...vocational and basic reading/writing skills are a big part of his plan to reduce the return of inmates after they have been released. I'm currently reading his book Joe's Law - I'd recommend it.

A whole-BOOK of Tall Tales????

​

 

[TheFranklinParty]

A whole-BOOK of Tall Tales????​

​

Wow, are you jaded...taking all politics aside this guy is a rock star in the drug inforcement world. What do you use for your factual data checking, the NY Times???

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Sheriff Joe has a lot of great ideas on Prison Reform...vocational and basic reading/writing skills are a big part of his plan to reduce the return of inmates after they have been released. I'm currently reading his book Joe's Law - I'd recommend it.

Better to have tried and failed then to never have tried at all...my life motto.

But isn't this like locking the barn door after all of the live stock have escaped into the night...I mean how are we going to undo the past 7 years of inflicted horror onto these people without making it appear as a self serving pat on the head???

 

[TheFranklinParty]

Better to have tried and failed then to never have tried at all...my life motto.

But isn't this like locking the barn door after all of the live stock have escaped into the night...I mean how are we going to undo the past 7 years of inflicted horror onto these people without making it appear as a self serving pat on the head???

My original post on this thread was just to reinforce that education has a proven track record within the general prison system. It helps change the life plan of what would otherwise be career criminals. We have no way of judging how this might help in re-integrating terrorist detainees, but it is worth the effort in some cases.

I think one of the challenges with any of these conversations about GITMO or any other military activity is that the real story is almost impossible to get. Having worked with and around the DoD for 25 years, it is clear that many subtle details are always left out of every story. Most times this is because the average person couldn't handle the realities of what is necessary to protect this country and sometimes it's to protect assets in the field. Occasionally, it is to cover up mistakes, but that is a lot less often then any of the conspiracists can accept.

My last thought...let's not forget that most of the people in these camps were captured due to their activities funding, working at, or training in terrorist camps.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

My original post on this thread was just to reinforce that education has a proven track record within the general prison system. It helps change the life plan of what would otherwise be career criminals. We have no way of judging how this might help in re-integrating terrorist detainees, but it is worth the effort in some cases.

No, we sure don't have any clue and we most certainly didn't have a 'PLAN' either and as far as recidivism within our own prison system...I don't have the figures at hand but I'm not so sure that it has as big of an impact as you may be hoping for. Budget problems within the prison system causes the 'newbies' into the juvenile detention centers to end up with loads of time on their hands and there isn't enough budget portions for proper teachers/counselors/psychologist for those large numbers of young people...they learn how to work the 'judicial system' not necessarily how to live among society! IMO But that is another topic for another day!

I think one of the challenges with any of these conversations about GITMO or any other military activity is that the real story is almost impossible to get. Having worked with and around the DoD for 25 years, it is clear that many subtle details are always left out of every story.

While this may and may not be true...the light of day and truth is always necessary to collaborate the facts and to improve the mistakes of the past...sometimes the truth gets uncovered but the process is lengthy and frustrating to dig up!

Most times this is because the average person couldn't handle the realities of what is necessary to protect this country and sometimes it's to protect assets in the field.

That remins me of the 'standard/pat answer' for keeping everything classified...so when in doubt and the truth would be 'to hard to handle'...just slap a 'classified label' on the ISSUE/PROBLEM and then it will all be better We've been bitten in the butt with this process in the past...I'm not very, very skeptical about those in power and their ability to hide those finite sticky details!

Occasionally, it is to cover up mistakes, but that is a lot less often then any of the conspiracists can accept.

Maybe I've lived to long and heard/read/watched to may "Watergate trials/CIA cover up/FBI screw ups"

My last thought...let's not forget that most of the people in these camps were captured due to their activities funding, working at, or training in terrorist camps.

You may have a point on this...but I have read too many documents/articles about the 'religious factions' with an ax to grind turning in their neighbors/other religious opponents as 'TERRORISTS' when in point of fact that they were never that nor were they ever given the opportunity to deny it...they have just been locked up and labeled 'TERRORISTS' because the USA offered $$$ / bounties for anyone turning a 'TERRORIST' in. So I personally don't buy the statement that "most of the people in these camps were captured due to their activities"...nope, not buying that as a FACT!

 

[TheFranklinParty]

No, we sure don't have any clue and we most certainly didn't have a 'PLAN' either and as far as recidivism within our own prison system...I don't have the figures at hand but I'm not so sure that it has as big of an impact as you may be hoping for. Budget problems within the prison system causes the 'newbies' into the juvenile detention centers to end up with loads of time on their hands and there isn't enough budget portions for proper teachers/counselors/psychologist for those large numbers of young people...they learn how to work the 'judicial system' not necessarily how to live among society! IMO But that is another topic for another day!

While this may and may not be true...the light of day and truth is always necessary to collaborate the facts and to improve the mistakes of the past...sometimes the truth gets uncovered but the process is lengthy and frustrating to dig up!

That remins me of the 'standard/pat answer' for keeping everything classified...so when in doubt and the truth would be 'to hard to handle'...just slap a 'classified label' on the ISSUE/PROBLEM and then it will all be better We've been bitten in the butt with this process in the past...I'm not very, very skeptical about those in power and their ability to hide those finite sticky details!
Maybe I've lived to long and heard/read/watched to may "Watergate trials/CIA cover up/FBI screw ups"
You may have a point on this...but I have read too many documents/articles about the 'religious factions' with an ax to grind turning in their neighbors/other religious opponents as 'TERRORISTS' when in point of fact that they were never that nor were they ever given the opportunity to deny it...they have just been locked up and labeled 'TERRORISTS' because the USA offered $$$ / bounties for anyone turning a 'TERRORIST' in. So I personally don't buy the statement that "most of the people in these camps were captured due to their activities"...nope, not buying that as a FACT!

I won't argue with the fact that transparency is the best policy. I agree that there have been some ugly miss steps in our history that could have been avoided or uncovered quicker if we didn't have "classified" as a method of cover-up.

With that said, never under estimate the amazing success of our soldiers, agents, and officers to keep John/Jane Q. Public safe at night. If all of their activities were out in the light of day they wouldn't be anywhere near as effective, and the general population would never confidently ride public transportation again, go to the ball park again, or drink water from their tap again. But that's just one man's opinion.

A big thank you to all of the soldiers, agents, and officers protecting us, especially those who will never get medals for their valor and courage because they work in places others won't go and do things others won't do.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I won't argue with the fact that transparency is the best policy. I agree that there have been some ugly miss steps in our history that could have been avoided or uncovered quicker if we didn't have "classified" as a method of cover-up.

Having lived through the era of: 'Vietnam' and the questionable body counts, Mei Lay incident, the *wink*wink* Army stemming the flow of illegal drugs into and out of Vietnam, the misguided use of the media by feeding them false information to keep getting those budget/funding approved upon the backs and dead soldiers, Ruby Ridge, Waco {I have a nephew who works FBI and was at both locations}, Water-Gate and all that in entailed and I watched as much of the hearings as I could stand, and then those horrible episodes of murder: JFK, RFK, MLK, the attempt on President Regan life, Bill Brady, Iran Contra Scandal, WTC, and then 9/11 and the grand finale of Iraq & Afghanistan...I'm cynical...very, very cynical of my government and the lack of morality that has oozed out of the highest places in my country!

With that said, never under estimate the amazing success of our soldiers, agents, and officers to keep John/Jane Q. Public safe at night. If all of their activities were out in the light of day they wouldn't be anywhere near as effective, and the general population would never confidently ride public transportation again, go to the ball park again, or drink water from their tap again. But that's just one man's opinion.

Espionage/secret agents/CIA/Pentagon/Cold War/Official Duty and all of the smoke & mirrors that go along with getting the 'factual information' that we strive to know buy devious means and whether or not is serves a real purpose...{shrugs my shoulders} WHO THE HELL KNOWS...cause I've the the affects of the mistakes/aftermath and it isn't pretty and it doesn't make sense sometimes at all. The ends don't always justify the 'MEANS'.

A big thank you to all of the soldiers, agents, and officers protecting us, especially those who will never get medals for their valor and courage because they work in places others won't go and do things others won't do.

No, no no...this was about the Prison Reform...not about patriotism and our over worked/stressed out/under paid/under appreciated military men & women. This was about the ability to reform/educate and reform a mind set / ilk that was out to eradicate Americans!!! Or so I thought!

 

[TheFranklinParty]

Having lived through the era of: 'Vietnam' and the questionable body counts, Mei Lay incident, the *wink*wink* Army stemming the flow of illegal drugs into and out of Vietnam, the misguided use of the media by feeding them false information to keep getting those budget/funding approved upon the backs and dead soldiers, Ruby Ridge, Waco {I have a nephew who works FBI and was at both locations}, Water-Gate and all that in entailed and I watched as much of the hearings as I could stand, and then those horrible episodes of murder: JFK, RFK, MLK, the attempt on President Regan life, Bill Brady, Iran Contra Scandal, WTC, and then 9/11 and the grand finale of Iraq & Afghanistan...I'm cynical...very, very cynical of my government and the lack of morality that has oozed out of the highest places in my country!
Espionage/secret agents/CIA/Pentagon/Cold War/Official Duty and all of the smoke & mirrors that go along with getting the 'factual information' that we strive to know buy devious means and whether or not is serves a real purpose...{shrugs my shoulders} WHO THE HELL KNOWS...cause I've the the affects of the mistakes/aftermath and it isn't pretty and it doesn't make sense sometimes at all. The ends don't always justify the 'MEANS'.

No, no no...this was about the Prison Reform...not about patriotism and our over worked/stressed out/under paid/under appreciated military men & women. This was about the ability to reform/educate and reform a mind set / ilk that was out to eradicate Americans!!! Or so I thought!

Maybe I'm the jaded one here but this is not like reforming a car thief. These are people who have a deep seeded religious belief that we in America should be put extinguished. There is no good answer here, but my point is let's not dishonor the many who quietly protect us by lumping all they do in with a handful of questionable calls.

Also, I want to reiterate a comment I made on another post...when we talk about those fools in government who are doing things to us we have to remember that "they" are us. We elected them and so inevitably it is our fault if they can't be trusted to look out for our best interest. If you want to take the position that we don't have anyone trustworthy to vote for then I suggest you run for office yourself. As a group of concerned citizens it is time we stop talking and do something more than just vote for the least worst candidate.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Maybe I'm the jaded one here but this is not like reforming a car thief. These are people who have a deep seeded religious belief that we in America should be put extinguished.

I didn't under stand this...could you clarify your answer?

There is no good answer here, but my point is let's not dishonor the many who quietly protect us by lumping all they do in with a handful of questionable calls.

If we don't look for the rotten apples/rotten potatoes in the midst of a organization then they multiply and contaminate the entire group...that's my point and that's why we will always need to examine/delve into/do the research and uncover what was/had led up to the problem!!! It serves no one but the deviant/lessor thinking humans to just ignore/allow the problems to go uncovered!!! IMO

Also, I want to reiterate a comment I made on another post...when we talk about those fools in government who are doing things to us we have to remember that "they" are us. We elected them and so inevitably it is our fault if they can't be trusted to look out for our best interest.

And if the ability to tell all of us voting public what we want to hear prior to election day to obtain our vote would in some way reassure us that that our elected officials would be all that they could be and honor up to what they 'TOLD US PRIOR TO THE SWEARNING IN CEREMONY" then how different would our historical past be recorded??? They 'swear in' and then renege on their campaign promises all of the time...with whom do we place our TRUST/VOTE What litmus test do we put them too???

If you want to take the position that we don't have anyone trustworthy to vote for then I suggest you run for office yourself.

Was that meant to be a flippant response...you are aware of the inability of 'John Q. Public' to afford a run for higher office; other then the local city council/possible mayor position...been there done that!!!

As a group of concerned citizens it is time we stop talking and do something more than just vote for the least worst candidate.

Totally in agreement here...that's why I'm a registered Independent and have been for many years...the tide is turning ever so slowly, away from the stoic 2 party system!!!

 

[TheFranklinParty]

I didn't under stand this...could you clarify your answer?
If we don't look for the rotten apples/rotten potatoes in the midst of a organization then they multiply and contaminate the entire group...that's my point and that's why we will always need to examine/delve into/do the research and uncover what was/had led up to the problem!!! It serves no one but the deviant/lessor thinking humans to just ignore/allow the problems to go uncovered!!! IMO

And if the ability to tell all of us voting public what we want to hear prior to election day to obtain our vote would in some way reassure us that that our elected officials would be all that they could be and honor up to what they 'TOLD US PRIOR TO THE SWEARNING IN CEREMONY" then how different would our historical past be recorded??? They 'swear in' and then renege on their campaign promises all of the time...with whom do we place our TRUST/VOTE What litmus test do we put them too???
Was that meant to be a flippant response...you are aware of the inability of 'John Q. Public' to afford a run for higher office; other then the local city council/possible mayor position...been there done that!!!

Totally in agreement here...that's why I'm a registered Independent and have been for many years...the tide is turning ever so slowly, away from the stoic 2 party system!!!

We're on the same page around the 2 party system. I wasn't being flippant at all. I wasn't specifically referring to you running, but I'm serious that more regular people should run. Recently, I was accused by Shaman of self promotion, so I want to be careful how I say this...my group is looking for people who want to run outside the 2 party system. We believe the time is right to get John Q. Public elected and the $$ issue can be overcome with levels of efficiency with technology and hard work. It's time we challenge the status quo, not just talk and write about it. IMHO

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

We're on the same page around the 2 party system. I wasn't being flippant at all. I wasn't specifically referring to you running, but I'm serious that more regular people should run. Recently, I was accused by Shaman of self promotion, so I want to be careful how I say this...my group is looking for people who want to run outside the 2 party system. We believe the time is right to get John Q. Public elected and the $$ issue can be overcome with levels of efficiency with technology and hard work. It's time we challenge the status quo, not just talk and write about it. IMHO

OH, Ok...clearly understood that response...but this statement is the one that I'm really convoluted/bewildered about>>>

Originally Posted by TheFranklinParty Maybe I'm the jaded one here but this is not like reforming a car thief. These are people who have a deep seeded religious belief that we in America should be put extinguished.

I'm a 'FOG' about what you meant???

 

[TheFranklinParty]

OH, Ok...clearly understood that response...but this statement is the one that I'm really convoluted/bewildered about>>>
[/i]
I'm a 'FOG' about what you meant???

I was referencing the fact that most of the GITMO detainees have strong religious beliefs that include the extermination of anyone that holds their hand over their heart when hearing the "Star Spangled Banner" (their not to fond of the Israelis either). Nothing short of deprogramming or brainwashing would change their point of view on this. By the way, I believe they have the right to their point of view, but not the implementation it.