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Realization of Utopias?

Discussion in 'House of Debates' started by zerorelations, Mar 26, 2007.

  1. zerorelations

    zerorelations New Member

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    “A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth even glancing at... Progress is the realization of Utopias.” - Oscar Wilde



    Do you think that Oscar Wilde is right? Do you believe that progress is the realization of Utopias and that a perfect world cannot exist?
     
  2. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    Utopia is a pipe dream but good old oscar does reveal much about himself with that statement. It is possible for it to exist for some, but since everyone has a different idea of what it is, there is no one place that will be utopia for everyone who lives there. Nazi Germany was utopia for some. The soviet union was utopia for those at the top of the pecking order. Even mao's china was utopia for a select few.

    I believe that the closest the world has ever come to utopia for all was the US before we gave government permission to interfere in every aspect of our lives.

    Freedom from government intrusion in my life would constitute utopia for me? Does your vision of utopia require that I give up mine in order for yours to be realized?
     
  3. Koios

    Koios New Member

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    I believe the closest we (as humans) have come to a Utopia is "the USA" before there was a USA.
     
  4. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    You think the natives lived in a utopia?
     
  5. Koios

    Koios New Member

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    Yes. In my opinion it was a far better state especially in its social and moral aspects, perhaps even politically too.
     
  6. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    Better state? Near constant intertribal war, very short life span as a result of disease, weather, injury, or starvation, genuine struggle to survive. Some utopia you have there.
     
  7. Koios

    Koios New Member

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    I think you are making a similar assessment as that made by one of the most rational thinkers of all time:

    (by Parekh on The Decolonization of Imagination - Culture Knowledge and Power)

    Additionally, I would argue that if anything, the colonizers brought many of the diseases you speak of. Additionally, the USA has always had great problems of its own including but not limited to: materialism, racism, obesity, and most notably, the exploitation of others in order to achieve ones own success.

    Of course no society is perfect....but I still disagree with the claim that the USA was once as close to a Utopia as we have ever been.

    I guess it all depends on how you define a "Utopia" and whether you factor in morality and concern for the world or whether you just limit yourself to the mere state of that one society. When I think of a Utopia I don't just think of the effect of that society on its own citizens but rather its "overall effect".
     
  8. Friendindeed

    Friendindeed New Member

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    They did not settle disputes so peacefully among themselves though.
     
  9. Koios

    Koios New Member

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    Well of course not.. but I still stand by the claim that they had a pretty good society in place. Unfortunately it is one which history books often neglect--in my opinion it was more Utopian like than the succeeding republic ever has been.

    In the end however I doubt there could ever be a Utopia, maybe there was once something that came fairly close but went undocumented.
     
  10. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    You consider a pretty good society one in which the strong rule the weak? One in which leadership is decided by actual physical combat between candidates?

    The natives were a savage lot long before we ever got here and they had always been at war with each other in exactly the same way we had always been at war with each other
     
  11. Lilly Marlene

    Lilly Marlene New Member

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    Irony alert.
    Is there a better description of runaway capitalism, Mr. Rider ?

    [That is not to agree with Koios that the American Indians had a utopia because I don't happen to agree with that either].
     
  12. Koios

    Koios New Member

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    Have you forgotten about the best military in the world. If I remember correctly, we spend more on our military than all the other "major" players put together. How exactly do you think we manage to "stay on top"? Do you really think the rest of the world just likes us that much? The difference is that we use bombs and guns to "settle" our disputes--something I think to be far worse.


    Btw Lilly, what would YOU say the closest the world has come to a Utopia is?
     
  13. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    In a capitalist system, people are climbing up the ladder and falling down it all the time. It isn't static and one who is weak today is one idea away from being on top tomorrow. Capitalism may be the worst system ever created, except of course, for every other system ever created.
     
  14. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    How nations handle disputes should not be confused with the way individuals handle disputes, especially in the context of utopias. Native tribes fought nearly constantly among other tribes (as we do) and their leaders assumed their leadership positions when all challengers were either dead or lying on their backs in submission (which we certainly do not).

    You simply can't paint the native americans into anything resembling utopia unless your vision of utopia is no medicine, short life spans, non existant sanitation, and never ending violence.
     
  15. Friendindeed

    Friendindeed New Member

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    Got to give you credit for a great reply palerider.
     

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