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Renewables at what cost

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by Dr.Who, Feb 26, 2009.

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Should we force a shift to renewable energy?

  1. Yes, we should shift the the more expensive renewable energy.

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. No, we should stick with cheaper gas until the market makes it more expensive.

    6 vote(s)
    75.0%
  1. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    President Obama plans to usher in a new era of renewable energy. He will "make" renewable energy profitable. He'll do this with a cap-and-trade system for carbon. The goal here is to "make" renewables economic by driving up the price of carbon.

    he can't make renewables cheaper so he has to make gas more expensive. You will of course then buy the renewable energy.

    Anyone who has paid attention in the last few years has seen that the high price of gas as it fluctuated nearly wrecked our economy. We all know that we need to stop being dependent on gas because when it is so expensive it weakens our economic system.

    Won't an even higher priced source of energy weaken it more?

    So tell me what do you think: Do we need to shift to a more expensive source of renewable energy? Or do we need to focus on keeping gas prices low and let the shift take place when it happens as driven by market forces?
     
  2. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, by artificially making oil more expensive here, you also make oil cheaper for everywhere else in the world.

    By doing that, you automatically put nearly every business in America, at a massive disadvantage to our over seas competition.

    For example, Auto manufacturing that requires tons of oil in the process for steel and plastics, will be cheaper in the rest of the world that does not have stupidity tax added to oil.

    Therefore, our auto industry that is already not doing great, will be at an additional disadvantage to foreign autos.
     
  3. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    I would disagree with that theory actually. Our economy was wrecked by bad accounting rules, and bad governmental push for sub-prime loans. And to a good extent, to bad Union demands.

    [​IMG]

    It was these things that caused the economy to crash. In fact, if you take a close look at the numbers, our economy really started to dive, many months after the price of gas was already dropping like a rock.

    To me the key is, as long as energy prices are the same for everyone, then energy cost will not be a factor in our economic decline. Why? Because all you need is a buyer and a seller. As long as the cost is the same, there is nothing to push economy one way or another.

    But if prices are not the same. If we are forced to use many times more expensive energy sources, while businesses in Canada, South Korea, Mexico, China and so on do not, then we will be in trouble. When they can make the same thing, with energy at half the cost, then we will undoubtedly see a dramatic decline in our economy as businesses lose to foreign cheaper products we can't compete with.
     
  4. chestnut

    chestnut New Member

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    The biggest concern on the carbon credits, is when we, as a country run out, then we have to go to a country that has some availabe and buy them.

    There will be no limits set on the prices since it will be determined by the country selling the carbon credit to determine what the value is.

    Imagine, US getting swindled by Kenya for carbon credits.


    Great Job Again President Obama
     
  5. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    what is the cost of national Security?

    what is the cost of falling behind on research for future fuels?

    what is the cost of a sudden loss of Oil ...but with no good investment in other sources?

    there are lots of costs to oil that are not in the cost per barrel.

    Simple fact...Oil will not go forever...more nations are using more and more ...and those with oil...often are not our friends.....if that's our only plan...then we are bound to crash and burn....its just a issue of when.
     
  6. Mr.Dysfunctional

    Mr.Dysfunctional New Member

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    Aaaaahh HAA!! you answered all your own questions yourself.. Teehee...
    It is an issue of when.. and for a nation built on capitalism.. you will not see a change unless the cost of energy goes up... however unless artifcially inflated.. you will see the same price increase across the world.

    So our cost to national security and all those other icky things you say will be the same as everyone else... unless of course your savant "Obmessiah" introduces cap and trade to force us to go one direction then another.

    Obama honestly needs to sit on his damn hands on this one and concentrate on the already pressing matters. Our floundering housing market and the money going out to further our war efforts are doing huge amounts more harm then gasoline price increases.

    Thou I am almost positive you will retaliate with "we won so we decide now" (( which you know doubt picked up from everyone else instead of your own thought processes)) I will rebuttal now by saying " we can't afford to change everything during such turbulence... we must move cautiously and with our eyes on our fore fathers."

    Blow that out your nose ;)

    Have a day pocket
     
  7. pocketfullofshells

    pocketfullofshells Well-Known Member

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    I stopped caring what you wrote about half way threw....since you dont have a clue.
     
  8. Mr.Dysfunctional

    Mr.Dysfunctional New Member

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    Proving yet again your egocentric socialopathic ways!

    I am still laughing just how much in favor you are of your own image!

    Here's idiot mans break-down (( since you missed the boat on lay-man))
    1. American business makes money off cheap oil.
    2. So does the rest of the freaking world.
    3. If oil goes up ,American business seeks to keep its money with a lower cost energy source.
    4. Research and devolpment money goes up in energy.. Renewable resources become more affordable. (( after YEARS of R&D ))
    5.America switches to Renewable energy.

    you screw with ethier #2 or #4 ... the whole thing falls apart..

    Try reading with glasses... Might help your learning curve.
     
  9. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

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    Since Oil never was, nor is a problem with national security, this question is based on a false presuppostion. Name one time in which oil became a national security threat?

    Not as high as the cost of billion in national debt to pay for fuel research that fails to deliver any results. For example, how much gasoline can you buy with the $3 Billion dollars that FutureGen has blown with zero results?

    There will never be a "sudden loss". As supplies, very slowly, start to decline, the price will increase. As the price slowly increases, other more expensive alternatives will slowly become more price effective. The market will ultimately balance out.

    The only way there will be a sudden shock, is if our own government prevents drilling (which they have done, and we've see the results) or if they prevent importing of fuel.

    Right... I've heard that lame theory before. So-called hidden costs that apply to nearly every energy source in common use. There's a hidden cost to getting up in the morning. You use more food, use more oxygen, and you could slip and fall and break your neck. We shouldn't get up in the morning... too many hidden costs.

    How do you know it's a fact? Have you been down to the tectonic plates where oil is created? Do you know how much is being created every year?

    It's amazing how many presuppositions people have about things they really don't know about. Oil will not go on forever... but what evidence do you have of this? None.
     
  10. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    Zero. If we drill for U.S. oil.
    Research is going on right now and it will intensify naturally as the price of oil goes up based on supply and demand. That basic principle will mandate that the appropriate amount of research always takes place.

    There is no reason that the oil reserves in Alaska, or off shore, or in shale, would suddenly stop producing oil - unless you think the Russians are going to invade and block off the pipeline.

    History has also shown us that we become more efficient at using everything we use. We will use less oil in the future per work performed.
    Everyone of those costs is derived ONLY on the cost per barrel provided that some politician does not make a law saying we can't drill for our own oil, or that we must protect the oil in the Straight of Hormuz, or that we must build windmills before their time has come, or that we must have fuel efficiency standards - all of those make the cost per barrel increase or make other costs increase for no good reason.

    The supply of oil will decrease steadily and the cost will rise steadily in very predictable ways if politicians do not step in. Other technologies will replace oil very steadily too. I have no problem paying higher costs for wind generated power if it costs less than oil generated power. I have a great problem paying more for wind generated power when oil is presently cheaper.
     
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