School District Removes “God” from the Classroom

I have no issue with individuals referring to God. I have an issue to making a pledge of allegence to any god.



You may not have said it, but by pledging to a nation UNDER God, you are pledging to a god.

Think about the words:

inalienable rights endowed by their creator...

one nation under God.....


There is a world of difference in meaning.

Okay, our debate is getting increasingly focused around semantics.

To say that we are endowed by our Creator is to imply that we are already under Him, so saying "one nation under God" isn't very different.
 
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If you read the entire Declaration, its quite obvious that the reference to creator and Natures God, were paganistic in origin, and had absolutely nothing to do with a Monotheistic God.

I respond to the rest later.


"Paganistic"????? What nonsense. Nothing you need to see in the "entire declaration", just three phrases.

and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,

all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence,

"nature's God" is deism. "Divine Providence" is straight out of Calvinism, Creator doesnt imply anything paganistic. You are just making this stuff up as you go along.
 
"Paganistic"????? What nonsense. Nothing you need to see in the "entire declaration", just three phrases.

Pagan n. 1. A person who is not a Christian, Moslem, or Jew; heathen. 2. One who has no religion.



When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


Thomas Jefferson thought of himself as a scientist more than he did a politician. Consider that the "Laws of Nature" describe a materialist viewpoint, many times referred to as Newton's laws in the years following Newton's discovery of the laws of gravity, light, and calculus mathematics. (Thomas Jefferson greatly admired Isaac Newton and anyone who visits Monticello will see the influence he had on Jefferson.) Clearly Jefferson intended "Nature's God," not to refer to the personal god of superstitious Christianity, but of a physical god of nature, the laws of physics-- Nature's God. In 1809 Jefferson wrote, "Nature intended me for the tranquil pursuits of science, by rendering them my supreme delight." Clearly Jefferson thought of Nature as God.

But even if you do not feel persuaded that Nature's God means the Laws of Nature and you insist that it refers to a supernatural god, then you still cannot use it to support a Judeo-Christian god. Why? Because to call the God of the Bible as Nature's God would not only contradict the Bible but would constitute heresy in the minds of 18th century Christian leaders of both the Protestant and Catholic faith. Nature's God describes a Pagan concept because nature describes the world. The Biblical concept of nature describes the earth (the world), the planets, plant, man and animal as nature, but certainly not as a part of God. According to Christianity God and Jesus come from above. The God of Christianity does not come from this world.

But to the Pagans, many gods of nature exist. The Egyptian, Hindu, Greek and Roman religions describe a plethora of gods of nature.

To continue with words in the Declaration:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.


The Declaration echoes John Locke's idea that in the "state of nature," all human beings lived free and equal (Locke would remain a hero of Jefferson throughout his life). The idea that "all men are created equal" goes against Biblical doctrine. The Bible supports inequality from a top down hierarchy: God-man-woman-beast (Catholic dogma adds the church and their priests between God and man). Moreover the word "Creator" describes a Deistic term in the 1700s.

Jefferson, in his many papers and correspondences throughout his life expressed a Deistic view of religion. Deists did not believe in miracles, revealed religion, the authority of the clergy, or the divinity of Jesus. Jefferson regarded ethics, not faith, as the essence of religion. Of course Deists believed in a creator, but thought that the original Creator no longer lived or did not play any part in the world or influenced the lives of people. That goes to the very reason why the American founding fathers knew that they (We the people) had to form the laws of the land, laws based on human reasoning.

Nowhere else in the Declaration (or any other founding document) do we find mention of gods or creators. The entire bases of connecting god with the U.S. government rests entirely on only three words, "Nature's God" and "Creator." Nothing more. And even these three words come from a deist describing a Pagan concept.
 
Pagan n. 1. A person who is not a Christian, Moslem, or Jew; heathen. 2. One who has no religion.

Hmmmm? 2 hits on google with that definition. Nobeliefs.com and a ZoRoAsTa site, that SAY its from "The American Heritage". As opposed to 56 google hits on this definition

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pagan

that says its from

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

well, maybe all 56 dont have the copyright, but maybe you get my point. If we are talking about the founders, the REAL American heritage definition or the Merriam Webster's

1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pagan

probably more accurately reflect the white, European concept of the term "pagan", or "paganistic", to reflect the polytheistic religion that was practiced in Europe before Christianity.
Anyway, I should probably retract my prior statement that

You are just making this stuff up as you go along

because you evidently relied on someone else to make this stuff up for you. Or I guess in this case, convieniently altering the definition from American Heritage.


Thomas Jefferson thought of himself as a scientist more than he did a politician. Consider that the "Laws of Nature" describe a materialist viewpoint, many times referred to as Newton's laws in the years following Newton's discovery of the laws of gravity, light, and calculus mathematics. (Thomas Jefferson greatly admired Isaac Newton and anyone who visits Monticello will see the influence he had on Jefferson.) Clearly Jefferson intended "Nature's God," not to refer to the personal god of superstitious Christianity, but of a physical god of nature, the laws of physics-- Nature's God....
But even if you do not feel persuaded that Nature's God means the Laws of Nature and you insist that it refers to a supernatural god, then you still cannot use it to support a Judeo-Christian god. Why?

I didn't say anything about Christianity. YOU were alleging it was "paganistic".
I said it was deism. And while the pre christian europeans also had nature's gods, I think the founders would have refered to the "nature's god" of deism, popular in 17th and 18th century Europe and America, and not the "natures god" of 1000+years earlier. Dont ya think? And the deist founders certainly didnt consider deism to be "paganistic". And Jefferson also said

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]

“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]

Certainly doesnt sound "paganistic". In fact it sounds very much a deist who is a follower of the doctrine of Jesus. Arguably a real christian, a follower of the doctrine of Jesus, not a follower of the doctrine of the church.

To continue with words in the Declaration:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.


The Declaration echoes John Locke's idea that in the "state of nature," all human beings lived free and equal (Locke would remain a hero of Jefferson throughout his life).

Read Locke's "Reasonableness of Christianity". He also is Arguably a real christian, a follower of the doctrine of Jesus, not a follower of the doctrine of the church. Certainly not "paganistic".

Jefferson, in his many papers and correspondences throughout his life expressed a Deistic view of religion. Deists did not believe in miracles, revealed religion, the authority of the clergy, or the divinity of Jesus.

uuuuh whats your point? Some did believe in the doctrine of Jesus and Deist are not "paganistic"

Nowhere else in the Declaration (or any other founding document) do we find mention of gods or creators. The entire bases of connecting god with the U.S. government rests entirely on only three words, "Nature's God" and "Creator." Nothing more. And even these three words come from a deist describing a Pagan concept.

???uuuhhh "we are endowed by our creator" singular.
???uuuuh no, a deist describing a deist concept. And you forgot "divine providence", Convieniently. Not written by Jefferson but added by others. Doesnt conflict with deism. Washington believed it was divine providence that helped him win battles. Divine providence was part of Protestant, Calvinist, Puritans Catholics etc doctrines. I dont know if pagans of pre christian europe believed the moon god or whatever had a hand in occurences or not but again they were refering to deism, christianity or both to please the differing views. NONE of which were considered "paganistic".
 
Hmmmm? 2 hits on google with that definition. Nobeliefs.com and a ZoRoAsTa site, that SAY its from "The American Heritage". As opposed to 56 google hits on this definition



that says its from



well, maybe all 56 dont have the copyright, but maybe you get my point. If we are talking about the founders, the REAL American heritage definition or the Merriam Webster's



probably more accurately reflect the white, European concept of the term "pagan", or "paganistic", to reflect the polytheistic religion that was practiced in Europe before Christianity.
Anyway, I should probably retract my prior statement that



because you evidently relied on someone else to make this stuff up for you. Or I guess in this case, convieniently altering the definition from American Heritage.




I didn't say anything about Christianity. YOU were alleging it was "paganistic".
I said it was deism. And while the pre christian europeans also had nature's gods, I think the founders would have refered to the "nature's god" of deism, popular in 17th and 18th century Europe and America, and not the "natures god" of 1000+years earlier. Dont ya think? And the deist founders certainly didnt consider deism to be "paganistic". And Jefferson also said



Certainly doesnt sound "paganistic". In fact it sounds very much a deist who is a follower of the doctrine of Jesus. Arguably a real christian, a follower of the doctrine of Jesus, not a follower of the doctrine of the church.



Read Locke's "Reasonableness of Christianity". He also is Arguably a real christian, a follower of the doctrine of Jesus, not a follower of the doctrine of the church. Certainly not "paganistic".



uuuuh whats your point? Some did believe in the doctrine of Jesus and Deist are not "paganistic"



???uuuhhh "we are endowed by our creator" singular.
???uuuuh no, a deist describing a deist concept. And you forgot "divine providence", Convieniently. Not written by Jefferson but added by others. Doesnt conflict with deism. Washington believed it was divine providence that helped him win battles. Divine providence was part of Protestant, Calvinist, Puritans Catholics etc doctrines. I dont know if pagans of pre christian europe believed the moon god or whatever had a hand in occurences or not but again they were refering to deism, christianity or both to please the differing views. NONE of which were considered "paganistic".

The astute reader will realize that I posted that as satire against those Christians who go around claiming America as a Christian nation because of the few Judeo-Christian symbolic references found on various artifacts ("God" on coins, 10 Commandments in front of court houses, etc.). If we use mottoes, pledges, and pictures of coins as a means to determine our founding principles, then the Christians will lose by a large margin considering the numerous pagan references that far outstrip the number of Christian references.

Our founding fathers never intended our country to reflect religious pagan or Christian principles. They formed a secular government (the first in the world) in order to separate religion from politics which includes the separation of pagan, and Judeo-Christian religions.
 
The astute reader will realize that I posted that as satire against those Christians who go around claiming America as a Christian nation because of the few Judeo-Christian symbolic references found on various artifacts ("God" on coins, 10 Commandments in front of court houses, etc.). If we use mottoes, pledges, and pictures of coins as a means to determine our founding principles, then the Christians will lose by a large margin considering the numerous pagan references that far outstrip the number of Christian references.

Our founding fathers never intended our country to reflect religious pagan or Christian principles. They formed a secular government (the first in the world) in order to separate religion from politics which includes the separation of pagan, and Judeo-Christian religions.

Could you link to someplace with a list of these? I'd find it to be an interesting study, but Googling it came up with little.
 
Real quick here....

I don't get why all this argument is going in so many directions...first of all.


THE FOUNDING FATHERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THE PLEDGE NONSENSE.

Bacon wrote the pledge. This is a given. HOWEVER BACON DID NOT INCLUDE UNDER GOD IN THE PLEDGE. This was added later in 54 by the powers that were. This has nothing to do with founders, nothing to do with anything. THIS WAS CHANGING A MAJOR ASPECT TO SUIT THE CURRENT NEEDS OF THE ADMINISTRATION. Definitely should be reverted to its original, with due haste.

As for the declaration, it's fine as it is, creator is non-specific, I'd argue it's not PAGAN since it doesn't EXCLUDE any of the tri-main religions..... anyhow...continue on.
 
Real quick here....

I don't get why all this argument is going in so many directions...first of all.


THE FOUNDING FATHERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THE PLEDGE NONSENSE.

Bacon wrote the pledge. This is a given. HOWEVER BACON DID NOT INCLUDE UNDER GOD IN THE PLEDGE. This was added later in 54 by the powers that were. This has nothing to do with founders, nothing to do with anything. THIS WAS CHANGING A MAJOR ASPECT TO SUIT THE CURRENT NEEDS OF THE ADMINISTRATION. Definitely should be reverted to its original, with due haste.

As for the declaration, it's fine as it is, creator is non-specific, I'd argue it's not PAGAN since it doesn't EXCLUDE any of the tri-main religions..... anyhow...continue on.

Actually, Francis Bellamy wrote the pledge, and you are right - it did not include "god". Rather, it's emphasis was on national unity - a nation indivisable - that there should never be a civil war again. Adding "under God" diminishes that emphasis and weakens the pledge.
 
THIS WAS CHANGING A MAJOR ASPECT TO SUIT THE CURRENT NEEDS OF THE ADMINISTRATION. Definitely should be reverted to its original, with due haste.

.........

When The Warrior Returns
- Francis Scott Key
...
In the conflict resistless, each toil they endured,
'Till their foes fled dismayed from the war's desolation:
And pale beamed the Crescent, its splendor obscured
By the light of the Star Spangled flag of our nation.
Where each radiant star gleamed a meteor of war,
And the turbaned heads bowed to its terrible glare,
Now, mixed with the olive, the laurel shall wave,
And form a bright wreath for the brows of the brave.
 
Just want to make this clear

I noticed USMC hasn't posted in a while and I noticed that he hadn't reacted to this when it was posted and I wanted to make sure he saw this:

The Pledge was originally created after the Civil War without the words "under God". Those words were not added until the 1950's during the McCarthy Era and the Red Scare.

By the way, kudos on the pledge to the Constitution. I like it and wish we would adopt it.
 
In the conflict resistless, each toil they endured,
'Till their foes fled dismayed from the war's desolation:
And pale beamed the Crescent, its splendor obscured
By the light of the Star Spangled flag of our nation.
Where each radiant star gleamed a meteor of war,
And the turbaned heads bowed to its terrible glare,
Now, mixed with the olive, the laurel shall wave,
And form a bright wreath for the brows of the brave.


Oh dear bloody god.
 
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School District Removes “God” from the Classroom​

http://www.thomasmore.org/news.html?NewsID=580
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"The Thomas More Law Center is a Christian, conservative, nonprofit, public interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and active throughout the United States. According to the Thomas More Law Center website, its goals are to "preserve America's Judeo-Christian heritage, defend the religious freedom of Christians, restore time-honored moral and family values, protect the sanctity of human life, and promote a strong national defense and a free and sovereign United States of America."
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