Sending "THE BIG-GUN" Into North Korea!!!

[ASPCA4EVER]

BigRob: Done as we have been told by the UN? What legally binding agreement from the UN have we broken? What treaties in modern times have we broken with other sovereign nations?

Do I need to pull the document back up here about the treaty that USA signed for rules of torture...surely you remember that significant paper that we have broken...how many times within the past 8 years???

Quote:
I stated: Indeed, it must end sometime or we could become our own worst enemy and the heavy hammer of justice from the 'AMERICAN FILTER' for who's in the wrong would be just such a highly contagious outrageous proposition that we have backed ourselves into our own little isolated corner of the world!

BigRob said: What on Earth are you talking about? Are you asserting that calling North Korea a "rouge state" will in fact isolate the United States in world opinion?

Globally...we have basically **** in our own nest with our aggressive action into Iraq when Osama Ben Laden was and most likely still in Afghanistan. We have proven to be the large power that can and has done whatever we deemed necessary. IMO

And I seem to recall no other atomic weapon being dropped by any other nation involved in a war, except US!!!

 

[BigRob]

Do I need to pull the document back up here about the treaty that USA signed for rules of torture...surely you remember that significant paper that we have broken...how many times within the past 8 years???

Yes, in fact you do. If you are referring to the Geneva Conventions, according to the very language in that treaty, those we "tortured" were not entitled to protections.

And if you want to point out the small number of other cases, I will point out how we punished those responsible already, thus living up to our end of the bargain.

Globally...we have basically **** in our own nest with our aggressive action into Iraq when Osama Ben Laden was and most likely still in Afghanistan. We have proven to be the large power that can and has done whatever we deemed necessary. IMO

What is wrong with doing what we deem necessary exactly?

And I seem to recall no other atomic weapon being dropped by any other nation involved in a war, except US!!!

So what? What is that supposed to prove?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Further, no, I do not think that classifying a country in a certain way is a bad thing. Should Reagan have referred to the Soviets as the "Beacon on the Hill" instead of the "Evil Empire?"

It wouldn't have (much) mattered.

ReRon Reagan lived in a fantasy-world....a world of unending-scripts.

ReRon Reagan was the GRANDDADDY of (present-day) Wacko-Partisanship.

​

"Reagan's "straight-shooting" cowboy persona, like so many other things about him, was contrived. It was during the Iran-contra scandal of 1986-87 that the public got a keen sense of Reagan's dishonesty."

"What we have found in this country, and maybe we're more aware of it now, is one problem that we've had, even in the best of times, and that is the people who are sleeping on the grates, the homeless who are homeless, you might say, by choice." -- ReRon Reagan - January 31, 1984

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Yes, in fact you do. If you are referring to the Geneva Conventions, according to the very language in that treaty, those we "tortured" were not entitled to protections.

VII Grave Breaches and War Crimes

The Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol I require the ratifying parties to repress grave breachesof the conventions, which are classified as war crimesunder statutes of the International Criminal Court and the U.S. War Crimes Act of 1996. States parties—that is, the ratifying parties—are required to search for persons who have allegedly committed or ordered the commission of grave breaches of the conventions and bring those persons before their own courts, or hand them over to another state party for trial.

Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention: willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments; willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health; compelling one to serve in the forces of a hostile power; and willfully depriving one of the right to a fair trial. Also considered grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention are the following: taking of hostages; extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; and unlawful deportation, transfer, or confinement.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_762529232_2/Geneva_Conventions.html

And if you want to point out the small number of other cases, I will point out how we punished those responsible already, thus living up to our end of the bargain.

This probably needs to be taken off of this topic since we are leading it quite astray from N.Korea & Bill Clinton ?
I stated: Globally...we have basically **** in our own nest with our aggressive action into Iraq when Osama Ben Laden was and most likely still in Afghanistan. We have proven to be the large power that can and has done whatever we deemed necessary. IMO

BIGROB answered with: What is wrong with doing what we deem necessary exactly?

In the instance that I typed:...we had no business nor any right invading IRAQ and going against the UN directive. We lied to the UN, we fabricated that dog & pony show that Collin Powell was given to prove our justification and the next time we approach the UN with an appeal for assistance they should slam the door in our collective faces. THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH DOING WHAT WE 'DEEM NECESSARY'...we have become the aggressor and are no better nor worse then the 'AXIS OF EVIL' that G.W.B. and company have whined about. SHAME ON US, we lowered the bar and now we should suffer the consequences for the lack of morality/dishonorable act!!! IMO
I stated:And I seem to recall no other atomic weapon being dropped by any other nation involved in a war, except US!!!

BIGROB replied: So what? What is that supposed to prove?

Now we the 'SUPREME COUNTRY' have established ourselves as the guardian of the 'non usable weapons such as atomic/nuclear war heads'...REALLY, that should make it OK, that we dictate to the entire WORLD what they can and cannot do, because WE SAY SO

 

[BigRob]

VII Grave Breaches and War Crimes

The Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol I require the ratifying parties to repress grave breachesof the conventions, which are classified as war crimesunder statutes of the International Criminal Court and the U.S. War Crimes Act of 1996. States parties—that is, the ratifying parties—are required to search for persons who have allegedly committed or ordered the commission of grave breaches of the conventions and bring those persons before their own courts, or hand them over to another state party for trial.

Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention: willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments; willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health; compelling one to serve in the forces of a hostile power; and willfully depriving one of the right to a fair trial. Also considered grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention are the following: taking of hostages; extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; and unlawful deportation, transfer, or confinement.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_762529232_2/Geneva_Conventions.html

This all ignores the fundamental point. Those we captured (for the most part) are not entitled to protection under these agreements, therefore making this entire argument void.

In the instance that I typed:...we had no business nor any right invading IRAQ and going against the UN directive.

Against which UN directive?

We lied to the UN, we fabricated that dog & pony show that Collin Powell was given to prove our justification and the next time we approach the UN with an appeal for assistance they should slam the door in our collective faces.

If you want to have a debate about the lead up to the war I imagine a different thread is the place to do it, but I think "lied" is not the word to describe what happened.

THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH DOING WHAT WE 'DEEM NECESSARY'...we have become the aggressor and are no better nor worse then the 'AXIS OF EVIL' that G.W.B. and company have whined about. SHAME ON US, we lowered the bar and now we should suffer the consequences for the lack of morality/dishonorable act!!! IMO

Our national security strategy clearly defined that we would pursue a course of prevention, no one seemed to have a problem with that until things went badly in Iraq.

I also find it quite ironic that you are calling the United States immoral for overthrowing a dictator that brutally murdered his own people on a regular basis and offered them zero rights.

Now we the 'SUPREME COUNTRY' have established ourselves as the guardian of the 'non usable weapons such as atomic/nuclear war heads'...REALLY, that should make it OK, that we dictate to the entire WORLD what they can and cannot do, because WE SAY SO

Do you want nations like North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia to possess nuclear weapons? Do you think Russia or China is going to prevent that?
__________________

 

[Mr. Shaman]

If there is nothing to benefit from taking an action, why should we take it? North Korea continually fails to meet its obligations, and we continually reward them for it.

You mean...the way Lil' Dumbya was forced to back-down and reimplement a strategy that works???​

"Responding to a standing invitation from North Korean President Kim Il Sung and with the approval of President Bill Clinton, I went to Pyongyang and helped to secure an agreement that North Korea would cease its nuclear program at Yongbyon and permit I.A.E.A. inspectors to return to the site to assure that the spent fuel was not reprocessed. In return, the United States and our allies subsequently assured the North Koreans that there would be no nuclear threat to them, that a supply of fuel oil would be provided to replace the power lost by terminating the Yongbyon nuclear program and that two modern nuclear plants would also be provided, with their fuel supplies to be monitored by international inspectors." [Carter, "Engaging North Korea," The New York Times, October 27, 2002]

"On October 4, 2002, the United States suddenly confronted North Korea with a damning accusation: that it was secretly developing a program to enrich uranium to weapons grade, in violation of the 1994 agreement that Pyongyang had signed with Washington to freeze its pursuit of nuclear weapons. Since North Korea had cheated, the Bush administration declared, the United States was no longer bound by its side of the deal. Accordingly, on November 14, 2002, the United States and its allies suspended the oil shipments they had been providing North Korea under the 1994 agreement. Pyongyang retaliated by expelling international inspectors and resuming the reprocessing of plutonium, which it had stopped under the 1994 accord (known as the Agreed Framework). The confrontation between North Korea and the United States once more reached a crisis level.

Relying on sketchy data, the Bush administration presented a worst-case scenario as an incontrovertible truth and distorted its intelligence on North Korea (much as it did on Iraq), seriously exaggerating the danger that Pyongyang is secretly making uranium-based nuclear weapons. This failure to distinguish between civilian and military uranium-enrichment capabilities has greatly complicated what would, in any case, have been difficult negotiations to end all existing North Korean nuclear weapons programs and to prevent any future efforts through rigorous inspection."

July 14, 2007​

"North Korea tells the US it has shut down its nuclear reactor after receiving the first shipments of heavy fuel oilhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2604437.stm. IAEA inspectors arrive for a monitoring visit to Yongbyon."

Gee.....how much we'd accomplished, during The Bush Years, as a result o' their Munchausen-like Foreign-Policy efforts.



*****​

"Fareed Zakaria sits down with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Kenya for her most exclusive interview yet. How did former President Bill Clinton end up on the mission to secure the two journalists' freedom in North Korea?"