Should Cinco de Mayo be celebrated in America?

[r0beph]

The civil war was fought over secession. The Secession was brought on by the north's interference in the slave trade and ownership. 4 of the 11 used it as their MAIN points for secession. The war due to secession ergo for slavery. Albeit there were a few other reasons, however the majority heralded slavery as the point in question. I've done my research, please sir, tell me then why it was fought?

 

[USMC the Almighty]

The civil war was fought over secession.

Partly correct. In the course of history, wars had historically been fought by two armies battling over land. The Civil War was more than this. It was the first war of ideas. It was a war of two civilizations, not merely two armies.

The Secession was brought on by the north's interference in the slave trade and ownership.

Partly correct, once again. This is a highly simplified version. The injection of slavery into the political arena (end of Gag Rule in 1846, KS-NB Act, Lecompton, Bleeding Kansas, etc...) is one reason. Another is the sharp mistrust of government despite what I believe were the good intentions of well meaning figures like James Buchanan, in part due to Bleeding Kansas and the Lecompton Constitution.

In addition, the South believed it could survive on its own ("Cotton is King") financially in light of the panic of 1857 which nearly crippled the North and left most of the South unscathed.

And lastly, the South felt as though it had been politically ostracized from the republic following Lincoln's victory in 1860. Many of the Southern states didn't even have Lincoln on the ballot and he still won.

So from a Southern perspective, they saw it as the Northern elite assaulting their society's ideology itself, they believed they could survive on their own financially, and they felt politically cut off. This is essentially my thesis on the causes of the Civil War. Ideological. Economic. Political.

Not just "they fought over slavery".

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it." -- Abraham Lincoln

 

[r0beph]

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it." -- Abraham Lincoln

That quote really has no bearing on the heart of the southern ideology. Sure they fought over much more than slavery, that is hardly in contention. But slavery WAS a big part and thus the war was fought over slavery [in part] just the same this incepts the southern cross' association with the slavery ideal. The problem is, I believe, that the southern ideology of the time was wayward and highly flawed, the banner of the battle flag today is not waved to show support for this form of thinking, I mean a likely 99% of those with the flag in their window fail to realize any of the reasoning behind the war. So why do they hoist it? They stout southern pride, but being southern, I have no pride in the past as flawed as it was. Many great things were done in those times by those of the south, rest assured, but that flag reminds me, educated in the historical relevance, of slavery among many other things, some of pride, some of disgust. This being said I couldn't raise such a banner to show my pride because it represents many things I hold as sacrilege against humanity. My pride in my southern heritage lies in that I am from the place that discovered peanut butter.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

That quote really has no bearing on the heart of the southern ideology. Sure they fought over much more than slavery, that is hardly in contention. But slavery WAS a big part and thus the war was fought over slavery [in part] just the same this incepts the southern cross' association with the slavery ideal.

The quote serves to support my contention that the Civil War was not fought over slavery and the Union's Commander/President agreed.

The problem is, I believe, that the southern ideology of the time was wayward and highly flawed, the banner of the battle flag today is not waved to show support for this form of thinking, I mean a likely 99% of those with the flag in their window fail to realize any of the reasoning behind the war. So why do they hoist it? They stout southern pride, but being southern, I have no pride in the past as flawed as it was. Many great things were done in those times by those of the south, rest assured, but that flag reminds me, educated in the historical relevance, of slavery among many other things, some of pride, some of disgust. This being said I couldn't raise such a banner to show my pride because it represents many things I hold as sacrilege against humanity.

Show me one country that doesn't have something of a flawed history in hindsight. To be completely honest, if my great-grandfather, a sergeant in the Union Army could see the state of affairs in the country he fought to save -- he might say he fought for the wrong side.

 

[Bunz]

Cinco De Mayo is not a big deal, its just another excuse to drink beer. I barely remember the best 4th of July party I was apart of. It took place in Perth, Australia.
I think the drum has been beat dead on the idiocy of not celebrating foreign holidays so I will spare it.

 

[mustardayonnaise]

Show me one country that doesn't have something of a flawed history in hindsight. To be completely honest, if my great-grandfather, a sergeant in the Union Army could see the state of affairs in the country he fought to save -- he might say he fought for the wrong side.

And how many countries still glorify their flawed histories? You can dance around the issue all day, economics, ideology, etc.... but the Confederate economy was based on slave labour, and their ideology was one of the superiority of the "White Race". They seceded from the union to prevent interference in their reliance on slave labour to drive their production and profits, the southern cross is the battle standard raised in the fight to protect slave-ownership, therefore it is a symbol of slavery and oppression to all who oppose such things. How can it be any different?

 

[USMC the Almighty]

How can it be any different?

Because the Southern ideology was focused around States' Rights and limited government. That's what the flag stands for, not slavery.

EDIT: I just want to make clear that I'm not some Dixie-singing Confederate sympathizer. I was raised in the Northeast and lived there for most of my life. In fact, General Sherman is one of my heroes. I am just trying to set the historical record straight here.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

The quote serves to support my contention that the Civil War was not fought over slavery and the Union's Commander/President agreed.



Show me one country that doesn't have something of a flawed history in hindsight. To be completely honest, if my great-grandfather, a sergeant in the Union Army could see the state of affairs in the country he fought to save -- he might say he fought for the wrong side.

No doubt your ancestor would be aghast at the profligate nature by which this country wastes blood and treasure in ill-advised foreign adventures.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

No doubt your ancestor would be aghast at the profligate nature by which this country wastes blood and treasure in ill-advised foreign adventures.

Absolutely correct. In addition to the removal of God from the public square, political correctness, and defeatism that has taken over this country.

 

[KeepOurFreedoms]

You really don't know much about history, do you? The US was founded by white people, but America was settled first by the indigenous people upon whom we committed genocide so that we could steal their land.

What about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

 

[mustardayonnaise]

Because the Southern ideology was focused around States' Rights and limited government. That's what the flag stands for, not slavery.

EDIT: I just want to make clear that I'm not some Dixie-singing Confederate sympathizer. I was raised in the Northeast and lived there for most of my life. In fact, General Sherman is one of my heroes. I am just trying to set the historical record straight here.

I see your point and I know the flag itself doesn't represent slavery, but when the states attempting secession openly declare that they do so in order to maintain slavery and insist on the superiority of the "White Race", these reasons will be given more weight than States' rights, especially given what they wanted to do with those rights. The historical record is pretty clear on this.

Caveat: I'm not American, nor have I ever lived there. I give my opinions on this discussion based on my (admittedly limited) knowledge of U.S. history. If I make any glaring errors or false assumptions, let me know. I'm here to learn, after all.

 

[9sublime]

Ever wonder why america is fighting each other now? Its because of traditions ruined. Marrage is supposed to be between a man and a woman not a man and a man or a woman and a woman.
Like Cities are Banning christmas decorations and you cant have a Nativity displayed on your property. You cant sing christmas carols in school. You should go back to the 1950s and learn how people got along with each other and respected one another like they used too.

I was going back through the topic as I've been away again for a week, and I came accross this post. How does a man and a man marrying make the whole world break down steve?

Its not the man and the man marrying, its the people who are so stuck in their ways that have to fight it for no real good reason as they have no leg to stand on. They are the ones who make the world a more unhappy place.

Apart from that, I agree with you. While I hate organized religion, Christmas is Christmas, and if you want to celebrate it, fair play to you.

Back the original topic though, why cant Mexicans celebrate something foreign in your country steveox? I'm still waiting for a reply on why you are therefore allowed to celebrate Christmas, Easter, St. Patricks Day etc. Once again your muddled political brain has made you blurt out a comment that you dont actually believe in, its just fuelled by an underlying dislike of your Mexican immigrants.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

Absolutely correct. In addition to the removal of God from the public square, political correctness, and defeatism that has taken over this country.

Of course, political correctness is all relative. I'm sure anti-slavery used to be regarded as such. Not slaughtering Indians probably used to be politically correct too.

 

[KeepOurFreedoms]

What about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/html/kennewick_man.html


Public interest, debate, and controversy began when an independent archaeologist, working on contract to the Kennewick coroner, decided the bones were ancient but might not be Native American. He described them as "Caucasoid" and sent a piece of bone to a laboratory to be dated. The final date indicated an age of 9,000 years, making Kennewick Man one of the oldest and most complete skeletons found in the Americas. Subsequent tests of other bone samples showed the skeleton to be somewhere between 5650 and 9510 years old. But if it is true that these human remains are thousands of years old, and are not Native American, then who was Kennewick Man? This question raised a number of other questions that have put Kennewick Man "on trial" in the public eye.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/kennewick.html

 

[USMC the Almighty]

...these reasons will be given more weight than States' rights, especially given what they wanted to do with those rights.

But it doesn't matter what any given individual or state does with their rights, the war was fought over the principle that the federal government could not control them.