Should Obama support investigating torture?

[AgainstTheMachine]

Libs are amazing. You have a cow because you think that Bush's administration might have tortured foreigners who could pose a threat to our nation, but didn't say a thing when Janet Reno ordered the murder of those at Waco, Y'know, AMERICANS, who didn't pose much of a threat to the nation did they? Who was running that administration?

Summary: Libs have a problem with the country not being humane to foreigners who threaten the country, but have no problem with the murder of Americans who might not vote the way they want.

That was NOT even the worst of it ...

In my opinion what was worse was the Janet Reno militant force to take a baby out of a nationalized American's arms and kiss Castro buns by giving up the fatted (Commie politcal tool) calf ...

Same smell on the obama lips too!

​

a real shame ... how quick does America forget?

 

[BigRob]

That was NOT even the worst of it ...

In my opinion what was worse was the Janet Reno militant force to take a baby out of a nationalized American's arms and kiss Castro buns by giving up the fatted (Commie politcal tool) calf ...

Same smell on the obama lips too!

​

a real shame ... how quick does America forget?

You mean the kid that was here illegally and was denied the right to stay multiple times in court? That one?

 

[Andy]

You mean the kid that was here illegally and was denied the right to stay multiple times in court? That one?

Really... this will be funny if you actually change my opinion on this issue so many years after it happened.

I think I now understand from a legal perspective, that the rule of law required Janet Reno to take Gonzalez back. (funny how that didn't stop her from not investigating Al Gore and a host of Clinton scandals)

What bugs me is, why do we have such a screwy law towards Cubans? Originally, I had assumed that all Cubans who try and escape the socialist paradise, were to be granted asylum.

Now, I find this is not the case. Why? If Cubans are willing to risk death in trying to cross the gulf, and we already know they will face persecution if they go back to Cuba... why then do we only grant them the ability to petition for asylum if they actually make it to shore?

Isn't this a bit inconsistent with other asylum policies?

 

[PLC1]

Really... this will be funny if you actually change my opinion on this issue so many years after it happened.

I think I now understand from a legal perspective, that the rule of law required Janet Reno to take Gonzalez back. (funny how that didn't stop her from not investigating Al Gore and a host of Clinton scandals)

What bugs me is, why do we have such a screwy law towards Cubans? Originally, I had assumed that all Cubans who try and escape the socialist paradise, were to be granted asylum.

Now, I find this is not the case. Why? If Cubans are willing to risk death in trying to cross the gulf, and we already know they will face persecution if they go back to Cuba... why then do we only grant them the ability to petition for asylum if they actually make it to shore?

Isn't this a bit inconsistent with other asylum policies?

This case is actually consistent with our screwy policy toward Cubans. If a Cuban manages to escape his paradise, and make it to US soil, then he/she is granted asylum. If, on the other hand, he or she is picked up in the ocean, then they are returned to Cuba.

Why that is remains a mystery to me. Such a policy is totally ridiculous.

But, it seems that Elian was picked up at sea:

In November 1999, Elián, his mother, and twelve others left Cuba on a small aluminum boat with a faulty engine; Elián's mother and ten others died in the crossing. Elián and the other two survivors floated at sea on an inner tube until they were rescued by two fishermen who turned him over to the U.S. Coast Guard.

and therefore was returned to Cuba.

The law is totally screwy, of course, and yes, it is inconsistent with our other asylum policies, but then, our policy toward Cuba is in general totally screwy.

So, the Elian Gonzalez saga is consistent with our messed up and illogical policies toward Cuba.

 

[BigRob]

If you want a decent book to get at least some insight onto how our Cuba policy came about in regards to refugees Escape from Violence: Conflict and the Refugee Crisis in the Developing World By Aristide R. Zolberg is a decent read I think. (The part about Cuba anyway)

 

[Andy]

This case is actually consistent with our screwy policy toward Cubans. If a Cuban manages to escape his paradise, and make it to US soil, then he/she is granted asylum. If, on the other hand, he or she is picked up in the ocean, then they are returned to Cuba.

Why that is remains a mystery to me. Such a policy is totally ridiculous.

But, it seems that Elian was picked up at sea:



and therefore was returned to Cuba.

The law is totally screwy, of course, and yes, it is inconsistent with our other asylum policies, but then, our policy toward Cuba is in general totally screwy.

So, the Elian Gonzalez saga is consistent with our messed up and illogical policies toward Cuba.

I agree completely! That's what I meant by the prior post. I just now (just because BigRob pointed it out) have realized that the actions back in 1999, were completely consistent and lawful under the current policy.

WHAT THE HECK.... is up with that policy?!? It makes no logical sense whatsoever. Especially since, the moment those Cubans are picked up by our national guard, they will be persecuted by the Cuban government if returned there!

I might end up reading the book Rob suggested, just because the complete nonsensical nature of our current policies, is just mind boggling to me.

 

[laymen]

I don't believe there is any " hope" for reconciliation between the Repubs and the Dems. This hole notion of investigating torture is a fools errand. Quite literally the world is coming unraveled and America is looking in the mirror, popping zits combing its hair and trying to look great for Europe, the Middle East and Asia.
I don't want to play kissyphoo with Europe, Asia, or the Middle East!....I don't care what they think of our foreign policies. We are the big dog we need to act like it. It's Time to pull back on all this bleeding heart B.S. and Just plane tell these A holes that if they want to participate in the building of the future with us, they need to step up to the plate and handle some of the responsibilities in their own back yards!
Given the logic of our policy that instability over seas is a great threat to our security .....then the best way to save the planet and improve the lives of people over seas is to stop pumping billion and billions over seas and start build the future right here!....And Like always the rest of the world will follow except for those back asward S.O.B.'s that think this is 800 A.D.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

PLC1 asked: Should Obama support investigating torture?

I think that there is a great need to open this Pandora's box and learn from this event IMO.

I'm not well versed in all of the legalize of the what/when/why and how the final decision was made...but it does beg to be examined and the light of day shown on this torture issue. I would prefer that the reasoning is not for 'head hunting' and to bring about adjudication but for learning from our mistake {yes, I think that this was a huge mistake...Saddam Hussein provided much more information to the agents that worked slowly and surely to win him over...to tweak his ego and become his one single source of information...that work really well so why was the decision made to treat those other prisoners differently}. Something smells in all of this and we would best serve our country with the answers to keep from making the same heinous error in the future!

 

[Pandora]

You mean the kid that was here illegally and was denied the right to stay multiple times in court? That one?

He was not here illegally, I dont agree with the law but Cubans who get on American land are legally Americans. Others are sent back to their countries but that does not apply to the people of Cuba. So the Gonzales kid should have been able to stay and they sure as hell should not have taken him by gun point.


Here in Oregon the lib freaks controlling our state are sending American kids to Mexico to be foster parented there and sending the money there. One of the kids have died so far and many fights to keep the American kids in America.

I dont know why they do this but its wrong.

 

[BigRob]

He was not here illegally, I dont agree with the law but Cubans who get on American land are legally Americans. Others are sent back to their countries but that does not apply to the people of Cuba. So the Gonzales kid should have been able to stay and they sure as hell should not have taken him by gun point.

He was picked up at sea, not on land, and then had his amnesty appeal denied in court. He was not here legally and he should have been deported.

 

[Pandora]

He was picked up at sea, not on land, and then had his amnesty appeal denied in court. He was not here legally and he should have been deported.

I thought once they hit American soil they were auto citizens. Is there a law that says if you are brought here by someone then you are not?

He ended up on our soil, how come its different for him than everyone else? Everyone else came by boat too and ended up on our soil... I supose the argument could be the others ended up on our soil without government help?

 

[BigRob]

I thought once they hit American soil they were auto citizens. Is there a law that says if you are brought here by someone then you are not?

He ended up on our soil, how come its different for him than everyone else? Everyone else came by boat too and ended up on our soil... I supose the argument could be the others ended up on our soil without government help?

No, once they hit US soil they can apply for amnesty, and will generally get it as I understand it. However the problem came because under US law a 6 year old kid could not apply for amnesty over the objections of his father (who was in Cuba). I think a big part of the issue was since his father wanted him back and was the guardian, he could not apply for amnesty under US law.

 

[Pandora]

No, once they hit US soil they can apply for amnesty, and will generally get it as I understand it. However the problem came because under US law a 6 year old kid could not apply for amnesty over the objections of his father (who was in Cuba). I think a big part of the issue was since his father wanted him back and was the guardian, he could not apply for amnesty under US law.

Hrmm.. I did not know that. I know he was with family in Florida, aunts or uncles or grandparent or something when they took him away, he was screaming and did not want to go.

I still don’t think he should have been taken away at gun point and I wish someone had of stepped in for him.


Here in Oregon we are having a problem with or governor sending American children to Mexico to be foster parented by their paternal grandparents. It does not seem right to send American kids away. I thought the Gonzales boy was here legally due to the weird clause about Cubans claiming citizenship when they reach our soil. Thank you for correcting me

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Just now on Face the Nation; John McCain said "we should not investigate the torturing issue and just move on, that we have learned from those mistakes and they won't be made again". He doesn't want to see people prosecuted for making those decisions!!

Jeez John, I really, really do like you...but are you OUT OF YOUR EVER LOVING MIND???

What did we learn, nobody has answered any of the hard questions about the decision and choices that were made...were they legally/rightfully made???

 

[Pandora]

Boy that Juan McCain better watch his words or he wont be the darling for the libs in this post election season anymore.