Socialism, schmocialism

[Mr. Shaman]

Ooo so the socialist idiots who passed a socialist bail out, are shocked when companies take up the offer? Don't be stupid. This is why conservatives universally were against the bail out.

Hey, get a grip on reality. Government bail outs are part of socialism. It's conservatives who are against socialism, not your democrat buddies in congress.

Yeah....right....it was the Dem Majority that pushed-it-thru, huh?

 

[GenSeneca]

You are trying to steer the conversation into your well-rehearsed comfort zone so your saved data seems smart and your parroted argument proves something.

Is this not exactly what you did with the creation of this thread? You attack "Profit", equating it with "greed", and blame Capitalism for having a lack of "morality" to it. You think this is new? foggedinn seems to think so:

Looks like bwana offers insightful analysis and andy offers ideological talking points.

Fogge.... bwana offers the same recycled anti-capitalist rhetoric and talking points that have been around for centuries. There's nothing new or insightful about any of that.... but he has tossed on a conspiracy theory about the Right Vs Left divide in America.

Wake up and smell the cat food. Neither party is without guilt and neither party is calling the shots from party headquarters anymore, they haven't for years. You are making my point that people like you will ENDLESSLY rehash this same blathering nonsense and never even get close to understanding what the primary problems in Washington are, let alone seeking to enter the discussion on how to solve them. You are still arguing about Fords and Chevys and meanwhile, back on the ranch...

Both parties are culpable for all our problems, I agree with that, but we seem to have very different opinions as to how and why.

The primary problem in Washington is Statism. This Big Government ideology has infected both parties and, as a result, government has steadily grown to the monstrosity that it is today with way too much power. As our Government and its bureaucracies grow, so does the corruption in and around Washington. With so much power being centralized, politicians can shield their political allies, and big campaign donors, from things like bankruptcy (bail outs), investigations and even prosecutions.

My only "problem" with the Left is their support of Statist policies, they can be as socialist as they like so long as they don't force it upon me through the power of government. Its the same problem I have with some on the Right but the Right is the only side with people who still believe in limited government and oppose Statist policies - Conservatives.

Statism is nothing less than tyrannical rule of the majority over the minority. If you are in the majority on an issue, it seems like a good deal and you're not likely to recognize it as being tyrannical but the minority always does... And on some issue, you will find yourself in the minority.

 

[bwana]

I did not attack profit, nor did I equate capitalism with greed.

I attacked the predatory business/lobbying practices and the manipulataion of our electoral process of super-wealthy corporations as THEFT and suggested that in an unchecked capitalist environment the door is left wide open to exactly what we see from these groups.

Without regulation, morality is the only thing to prevent slaughter. While you and I seem to be held to a standard of morality in this country, corporations do not anymore. Capitalism, socialism and any other 'ism is incapable of morality, this is why we have laws or why we suffer in their absence.

If I were to steal your spinal cord and leave you paralyzed I'd be a horrible criminal but if I was an insurance company, I could simply withhold therapy or maybe delay it for a few critical weeks and accomplish the same crime legally. I'll get you some phone numbers if you really want to speak with a few people. It would be unkind to post them here.

You think this isn't happening dude? You think the family of a stoke patient or accident victim or single mom with ovarian cancer gives a crap for some flag-waving idealist's view of who the enemy is? All they care about is fairness. Justice. That the same morality required of them is returned by their government, their insurance companies and their leaders. That is all.

These are not conspiracies, it is simple greed. It is justification for amoral practices, it is rationalization for ill-gotten gains. Is it worth it on a social level for Wal-Mart to drive untold small business people out of their shops because they can use their clout to sell tube socks for less? At some point Wal-Mart is no longer the smartest retailer with a pefected delivery system, they become a bully. Read about it. I'm not making this up. You got google, right? You think this is an ideological issue?

How do the oil companies just happen to post record-breaking profits quarter after quarter with 2 wars going on, 3 direct-hit TX coast hurricanes and the economy in the tank. Most challenging energy ecomony ever, right? I didn't do better in this challenging economy, I got my butt handed to me. This could not possibly be a more outrageous lie. It is categorically impossible for any thinking adult to believe this is just an accident. OJ made a better argument.

Our esteemed financiers thought they'd get cute with mortgage-backed securities, shifting to fee-based income, an entire list of riduculously risky insurance schemes (you want some links to these beauties?) that are just plain embarassing and shameful. What were their motivations? Greed or to demonstrate the benefits of capitalism? They are just idealists, right?

Rush taught you to say that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the Dems made 'em do it, right? They did it because the interest rates fell below 10% and there was no longer a 6 or 7 percentage point spread between how much they paid your Mom for a CD and how much they earned from loaning it to you. They couldn't make 6 or 7% anymore servicing a few loans so they tried earning a few hundred quick bucks from a few hundred thousand home-equity and retail loan fees. READ.

These are the results of corporate strategies. Not capitalism. They are functions of greed. Not a social construct. There is a huge difference. Read your American History about the robber barrons of the 1900-40's. This isn't new. It's happenned all over the world since the invention of possessions. The guy sitting next to the inventor of the club had a sore head. The guy to his far right must have believed the guy with the club had a RIGHT to conk him on the head because he had the club first, (here is the key) AND HE REALLY WANTS A CLUB OF HIS OWN ONE DAY. Clubitalism is born. They immediately labelled the guy with a knot on his head as a socialist and having the knot on his head, he immediately agreed.

Capitalism is not intended to allow slaughter, it is an ideology. A definition in a book. Socialism is the same thing. You and a whole host of others are waving at windmills, a leigion of Don Quixoties all bent on saving the world from the great socialist satan and you don't even know the difference between an ideology and a crime. If you had trhe sense to join the fight against the criminals, we'd win but it really is just easier to go down to Wal-Mart and buy Rush Limbaugh's new book, right? Drive past the locally-owned corner book store that is now out of business.

The "socialists" you think you need to fear don't have any money. Follow the money man and you'll find who is to blame. Exxon posted $14./8 Billion in the last quarter. Accident? Market driven? (http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalc...s-breaking-profit-records/?mod=googlenews_wsj) They've been raking in billions every quarter for the last several years.

One of you boneheads tried to lecture me about market economies in an earlier post and I refrained from an answer because it was so stupid. Here's your answer...

You want to know what happens when one company out of 12 makes $14.8 BILLION in a quarter? Their competitor decides they'll be happy with $12 BILLION and cuts their price. Another one says, hey man, $9 BILLION works for me and lowers their price too. The little guy sees a wonderful opportunity to earn a bunch of market-share by aimimg at the lousy $3 BILLION mark. Unless of course they call ALL make $14.8 BILLION. Well then, the margin just stays there doesn't it. Free market my hind leg! NOBODY IN A FREE-MARKET ECONOMY MAKES THAT MUCH MONEY QUARTER AFTER QUARTER WITHOUT SOMEBODY COMING IN A TRYING TO STEAL A HUNK OF THEIR SALES.

But somehow, there is this huge following who ALWAYS sees this as an attack on their patriotic pride, you goldarn socialist pigs, stomp&&ng AlL OVEr my Red wtITE &blu ..**5$#@@! I'll get my shotgun and blow a hole... And the usual rhetorical speeches and the country music soundtrack and pictures of apple pie.... pretty girl for VP....

Let's do a poll of anybody ever screwed and left to die by an insurance company and see what their ideological leanings are. Let's do a poll of shop keepers put out of business by Wal-Mart (I DO keep picking on Wal-Mart don't I?) Let's do a poll of the ones who are suffering or who have suiffered.

I have been blessed in my life. But, I have seen with my own eyes others who have not. It makes me sick. It makes me sick enough to really not care what Don Quixote thinks, or is thinking about when he charges at another windmill with visions of fair Dulcinea clouding his judgement.

Or just keep on playing the stereotype. It IS fun to watch. Now that you are so comlpetely outnumbered it won't matter much.

bwana

 

[GenSeneca]

I attacked the predatory business/lobbying practices and the manipulataion of our electoral process of super-wealthy corporations as THEFT and suggested that in an unchecked capitalist environment the door is left wide open to exactly what we see from these groups.

In what way are the "free" markets unchecked? Capitalism has been shackled by socialist policies and then people like yourself blame Capitalism for the failings of socialist policy... like bailouts, handouts, and especially government regulations.

Without regulation, morality is the only thing to prevent slaughter. While you and I seem to be held to a standard of morality in this country, corporations do not anymore. Capitalism, socialism and any other 'ism is incapable of morality, this is why we have laws or why we suffer in their absence.

What is your standard of morality? Societal, Philosophical, Religious? Do you feel its your "right" to force upon me a moral code of morality that I disagree with? I do not wish to use the force of government to force mine on anyone, quite the contrary, I seek to reduce Governments size and scope to reduce, and one day eliminate, its power to force morality on others.

Capitalism does have a moral code: Profit. Every other system calls for sacrifice so its no surprise they continue to fail - we cannot sacrifice ourselves into prosperity.

if I was an insurance company, I could simply withhold therapy or maybe delay it for a few critical weeks and accomplish the same crime legally.

Do you honestly believe Government will not, cannot, and does not, do the same thing to people already? Andy has provided example after example of failing socialized medicine where people are denied and/or delayed treatment.

All they care about is fairness. Justice. That the same morality required of them is returned by their government, their insurance companies and their leaders. That is all.

What morality is required of them by their government? I should hope there would be none... its not governments place to force any morality on the people.

Its easy to declare you want fairness and justice without bothering to qualify or quantify either. We don't all agree on what is fair and what is just... Where do you draw the lines for these concepts? That's an important question for moving ahead with the discussion and its answer is not a simple one.

These are not conspiracies, it is simple greed. It is justification for amoral practices, it is rationalization for ill-gotten gains.

It was you that claimed something about the Right vs. Left divide being a smokescreen for criminality.... that is a conspiracy theory.

If your morality and mine do not match, who is to say which one is superior?

How do the oil companies just happen to post record-breaking profits quarter after quarter with 2 wars going on, 3 direct-hit TX coast hurricanes and the economy in the tank.

Its called supply and demand. When demand outpaces supply, the costs rise to balance the equation.

Our esteemed financiers thought they'd get cute with mortgage-backed securities, shifting to fee-based income, an entire list of riduculously risky insurance schemes (you want some links to these beauties?) that are just plain embarassing and shameful. What were their motivations? Greed or to demonstrate the benefits of capitalism? They are just idealists, right?

This doesn't happen in a Capitalist system. In Capitalism, Profit is the motive. Investing in "rediculously risky insurance schemes" is not something that someone seeking profit would venture into without some goading.... like Fannie and Freddie telling banks they would buy those risky loans from the banks to eliminate the risk. Without the backing of government and the taxpayers money, business that engages in practices that result in negative profit go out of business - they don't get bailed out.

READ.

You should take your own advice and try reading the legislation that has created the problems we face. Rush Limbaugh taught me? Did Keith Olbermann tell you that?

Read your American History about the robber barrons of the 1900-40's.

I'm well aware but I don't see the correlation. The biggest monopoly in America is our Government. The biggest hindrance to expanding competition is our government. Attacking "greed" is quite popular but where is your indignation at the greed of our government?

It's happenned all over the world since the invention of possessions.

Possessions are an Invention? When the first man used his skill to better himself and began accumulating possessions, the socialist is the one who grabbed a club, claiming an equal right to someone elses possessions, and took through force what belonged to another.

You and a whole host of others are waving at windmills, a leigion of Don Quixoties all bent on saving the world from the great socialist satan and you don't even know the difference between an ideology and a crime.

Once again with the Conspiracy Theories.... "Big Oil" is the criminal mastermind thats orchestrating its diabolical plans through the corruption of the government. You and Sihoutte should get together.

The "socialists" you think you need to fear don't have any money.

Its people without money who want to take it from others.... I do not fear those who are wealthy and I do not consider their wealth a crime.

Exxon posted $14./8 Billion in the last quarter.

Exxon also paid 38 billion in taxes that same quarter... who is the real criminal? Exxon, who produced and distributed that commodity, or our Government, who did nothing yet received more than twice as much? Which one has the greed? If taxes, royalties and fees had not cost Exxon an additional 38 billion, their products would have sold for a cheaper price and they would not have made the profit they did.

Unless of course they call ALL make $14.8 BILLION.

They didn't all make 14.8 billion.... The econ 101 widget factory conceptualization of our market is not comparable to the commodities market and especially not when we're talking about a commodity that so critical to the nations infrastructure and daily operations. Oil is a world market and its prices are subject to supply and demand on a global scale.

Or just keep on playing the stereotype.

Keep stereotyping others, I'm sure thats much easier to do that than engage in substantive discussion.

Now that you are so comlpetely outnumbered it won't matter much.

So as long as your gang is bigger than mine, you are free to trample my rights? That doesn't sound very Constitutional.... You sound like the greedy bully you denounce, waving your club around and trying to dictate the terms of our interactions.

 

[Andy]

Yeah....right....it was the Dem Majority that pushed-it-thru, huh?

Perhaps for you things take multiple applications to sink in. The record speaks for itself. So for your benefit, I'll repeat it.

For the record:
SENATE voting AGAINST HR 1424

Republicans 15
Democrats 9

And by the way, democrats controlled the Senate. They could have killed the bill at any time if they choose too.

In the HOUSE, votes FOR HR 1424
Democrat: 171
Republican: 91

The sponsor of the bill was:
Rep. Patrick Kennedy
a democrat.
There were 274 co-sponsors of the bill.
40 were Republicans.

As long as you are willingly ignorant enough to blame one person for the action of three hundred or more, the three hundred have no reason to stop doing these things.

 

[bwana]

Go get that windmill Senor Don!

 

[GenSeneca]

Go get that windmill Senor Don!

I'll mark this up as one of the many ad hominem tag lines given by Conspiracy Theorists who are not capable of mounting a logical explanation in defense of their theories. Other notable tag lines include:

"The emperor is naked!" -- nospam4me

"You seem to be a government apologist" -- Truth-Bringer

"I can just see you with your fingers in your ears going la la la" -- Dawkinsrocks

Calling me names, like Don Quixote, and refusing to defend your positions reveals your positions to be weak and indefensible.
------------------------------------------------

Now if you care to do more than call people names, answer this question:

What is your standard of morality?

And I would like to reiterate something you said:

Now that you are so comlpetely outnumbered it won't matter much.

What is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular. You can only make the statements like the one above if you have nothing but contempt for anyone in the minority... Thats a despotic and tyrannical mindset shared by all the oppressors in history.

 

[bwana]

Lets see, Unchecked, predatory corporate profit motive is moral freedom and the desire for fairness, justice and widespread prosperity is...what were your words?...a despotic and tyrannical mindset shared by all the oppressors in history.

I get it now!

You, sir Don, are a genius.

You made your point. The windmill is crumbled, fair Dulcinea awaits...... Anything else you need to complete your dream world? Free cable? Thumbscrews? Public waterboarding spas? A book deal? Oh wait, a seat on the board of directors. You can finally have a club too!

Cue the music!

Sancho giggles, hops on his donkey and goes to the Obama victory party with all the other despotic, tyrannical, oppressors.

despot bwana

 

[Andy]

I attacked the predatory business/lobbying practices and the manipulataion of our electoral process of super-wealthy corporations as THEFT and suggested that in an unchecked capitalist environment the door is left wide open to exactly what we see from these groups.

And your solution would be? Hint: In every economy, in every form or government, in every nation, there will be lobbyists, and there will be manipulation of the system. The question is how much, and by who. In socialist countries, the corruption is far worse because since no legal lobbying is allowed, everything is concealed. I'd rather have it legal where I know who got what from where, than the alternative.

If I were to steal your spinal cord and leave you paralyzed I'd be a horrible criminal but if I was an insurance company, I could simply withhold therapy or maybe delay it for a few critical weeks and accomplish the same crime legally. I'll get you some phone numbers if you really want to speak with a few people. It would be unkind to post them here.

It is illegal to deny critical care.

You think this isn't happening dude? You think the family of a stoke patient or accident victim or single mom with ovarian cancer gives a crap for some flag-waving idealist's view of who the enemy is? All they care about is fairness. Justice. That the same morality required of them is returned by their government, their insurance companies and their leaders. That is all.

Justice doesn't include forcing people to supply your wants, or even needs. Fairness is a myth. Time to wake up. I was taught as a child that life isn't fair. Good parents teach their children this, because if you don't, you'll be a bitter waste of a human most of your life.

These are not conspiracies, it is simple greed. It is justification for amoral practices, it is rationalization for ill-gotten gains. Is it worth it on a social level for Wal-Mart to drive untold small business people out of their shops because they can use their clout to sell tube socks for less? At some point Wal-Mart is no longer the smartest retailer with a pefected delivery system, they become a bully. Read about it. I'm not making this up. You got google, right? You think this is an ideological issue?

Think about what you are saying. The way that Wal-Mart can put other businesses out of business is because they offer more, or better quality, or lower price products, than their competitors.

This is the legacy of free-market. Montgomery Ward mail order, was the largest massive mail order company in the 1880s, due to it's cheaper cost, and the fact they delivered everywhere. Sears replaced them by cutting costs, and offering more products. Sears then went into retail, and provided cheaper goods with more outlets using stores located on train tracks.

A & P supermarkets, was the number one market chain in the US in the 1930, but now are down to a few hundred, as Supermarkets like Meijer and Wal-mart offer lower prices and better products.

The only way to stop the natural cycle of the free-market is by prevent people from offering better products, more products, or lower priced products to consumers. Is that what your in favor of? You want to force the public to pay higher prices for the same products just because you don't like Wal-Mart being able to compete?

How do the oil companies just happen to post record-breaking profits quarter after quarter with 2 wars going on, 3 direct-hit TX coast hurricanes and the economy in the tank. Most challenging energy ecomony ever, right? I didn't do better in this challenging economy, I got my butt handed to me. This could not possibly be a more outrageous lie. It is categorically impossible for any thinking adult to believe this is just an accident. OJ made a better argument.

Um... that's really easy. It's called basic economics. When the supply goes down.... the price goes up. This isn't hard.

You can always go to Cuba where there is no challenging economy, and get your $1/day socialized wage. Look, here's how it works. In a free market, there is no promise of success. You must provide something at a wage competitive to the market. If you don't, you lose. The alternative is to give up all your freedom for the promise of a guaranteed wage. Look at east and west Berlin. That whole situation was played out.

Our esteemed financiers thought they'd get cute with mortgage-backed securities, shifting to fee-based income, an entire list of riduculously risky insurance schemes (you want some links to these beauties?) that are just plain embarassing and shameful. What were their motivations? Greed or to demonstrate the benefits of capitalism? They are just idealists, right?

We already covered this. Government pushed for sub-prime loans. The motivation for any business is to sell a product and earn a pay check. If you open a business and don't try and sell something for a pay check, you won't be in business for long.

Did it ever occur to you that you are not a mind numbed robot haplessly falling into traps? If you don't want to pay fees and high interest rates, don't take the loan. I didn't... and I'm not paying them. It's that simple.

Rush taught you to say that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the Dems made 'em do it, right? They did it because the interest rates fell below 10% and there was no longer a 6 or 7 percentage point spread between how much they paid your Mom for a CD and how much they earned from loaning it to you. They couldn't make 6 or 7% anymore servicing a few loans so they tried earning a few hundred quick bucks from a few hundred thousand home-equity and retail loan fees. READ.

You are acting like an arrogant fool.

I have not listened to Rush for a good 15 years. No one taught me to say anything. I read up on the situation myself and learned for myself what the truth is. And... the truth is, you are wrong, I am right. I have seen the documents, I've looked up the bills that were passed, I've looked at the policies instituted by the people in power at the time, and... they all prove that yes in fact, the democrats had a policy of lowering the standards by which people could get loans. As such, they pushed the industry to provide these risky bad loans, and the industry did what the government wanted. If you wish to deny this, then you are willfully choosing to remain ignorant.

Grow up.

The "socialists" you think you need to fear don't have any money. Follow the money man and you'll find who is to blame. Exxon posted $14./8 Billion in the last quarter. Accident? Market driven? (http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalc...s-breaking-profit-records/?mod=googlenews_wsj) They've been raking in billions every quarter for the last several years.

A socialist just got elected president, and he was in the top 1% of wage earners. So... they do have money.

Good. They will use the money to provide jobs, and drill more wells, which will increase the supply, thus lowering the cost. A trend we are seeing in effect right now.

One of you boneheads tried to lecture me about market economies in an earlier post and I refrained from an answer because it was so stupid. Here's your answer...

You want to know what happens when one company out of 12 makes $14.8 BILLION in a quarter? Their competitor decides they'll be happy with $12 BILLION and cuts their price. Another one says, hey man, $9 BILLION works for me and lowers their price too. The little guy sees a wonderful opportunity to earn a bunch of market-share by aimimg at the lousy $3 BILLION mark. Unless of course they call ALL make $14.8 BILLION. Well then, the margin just stays there doesn't it. Free market my hind leg! NOBODY IN A FREE-MARKET ECONOMY MAKES THAT MUCH MONEY QUARTER AFTER QUARTER WITHOUT SOMEBODY COMING IN A TRYING TO STEAL A HUNK OF THEIR SALES.

What the heck are you babbling about? So... your saying that if a company can make that much money, then obviously it isn't a free market? That is flat-out retarded. That is idiots economics.

Here's the truth. If a company can provide a better product at a lower price, then they will make billions every quarter BECAUSE people are buying their better product at a lower price.

Now are other companies trying to take market share and earn the $14.8 billion? Um... duh.. YEAH! There are dozens of companies in the oil industry, each trying to cut out their own chunk of the market. If you don't know this, then you really don't know enough about the oil industry to comment on it.

Let's do a poll of anybody ever screwed and left to die by an insurance company and see what their ideological leanings are. Let's do a poll of shop keepers put out of business by Wal-Mart (I DO keep picking on Wal-Mart don't I?) Let's do a poll of the ones who are suffering or who have suiffered.

This is stupid. Now your just ranting. Can I look at all the people who have died inside the emergency room in socialized care countries, and ask them how well their system works? Can I ask all the people who have flown here form Canada to get treatment their country under socialized would not even offer, how much better it is there?

And what about all the customers who have better and cheaper products because of wal-mart? Are you going to poll all of them?

 

[Andy]

Unchecked, predatory corporate profit motive is moral freedom and the desire for fairness, justice and widespread prosperity is...what were your words?...a despotic and tyrannical mindset shared by all the oppressors in history.

Idiocy.

Apparently in your view corporations providing products people want, is 'predatory'. And everyone everywhere, including the person I am talking to, is profit motivated. I suppose you are predatory worker for requiring the cost of your high wage that must be passed on to the poor consumers. Maybe we need to keep you in check, and demand you earn less.

 

[GenSeneca]

Lets see, Unchecked, predatory corporate profit motive is moral freedom and the desire for fairness, justice and widespread prosperity is...what were your words?...a despotic and tyrannical mindset shared by all the oppressors in history.

Once again, you choose not to engage in discussion, instead you seem to imagine yourself somehow superior and above explaining yourself.

Fannie and Freddie were GSE's, backed by the Government and taxpayers so they could make bad business decisions and not have to fail. They told banks to make bad loans and promised to buy the bad paper from them, which they did. From 2001-2008, Republicans were calling for this practice to stop and Democrats like Barney Frank, who was literally in the sack with Fannie CEO Franklin Reines, saying there were not problems and the regulatory oversight was not necessary.

Fairness, Justice, Widespread Prosperity.... That's exactly what Capitalism has to offer. Your comments about not caring about what I had to say because of my status as a Minority is what I found to be despotic, tyrannical and oppressive.

 

[Andy]

Every time you compare how the two ideologies play out, Socialism results in poverty and suffering, Capitalism results in wealth and prosperity. Every single time.

North Korea, south Korea. Hong Kong, China. Columbia, Venezuela. USA, Soviet Union.

You can't even begin to frame a situation in which Capitalism and free-market is trumped by Socialism and government oppression.

 

[Pandora]

Every time you compare how the two ideologies play out, Socialism results in poverty and suffering, Capitalism results in wealth and prosperity. Every single time.

North Korea, south Korea. Hong Kong, China. Columbia, Venezuela. USA, Soviet Union.

You can't even begin to frame a situation in which Capitalism and free-market is trumped by Socialism and government oppression.

isnt that the point though?

easy road to make everyone equal is take from the rich so everyone can be poor

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Hey guys, it is possible to be gracious in defeat you know.

Your republican half-wit president has crippled your country with debt and what have you got to show for it?

Two unwinnable wars, a banking systemn in meltdown, no value in your houses etc etc and Obama has got to sort out this appaling legacy of Bush.

You should be hugely relieved that this blot on your country's history is over

 

[GenSeneca]

You should be hugely relieved that this blot on your country's history is over

Does this mean you no longer hate America?

I hope not... you had so much to say about how we were a fascist nation of criminals... well now is your chance to be correct in saying such things.