The Bible; The Unabridged-Version

[Mare Tranquillity]

Because if your ridiculous claims go un-opposed people will believe the crazy stuff you say.

God is not the author of evil. He may use it for good when someone else is the author and he may even do things that you like to spin as evil but he does not Himself author it.

So you really believe that God ordered all that stuff? Geez, Who, where is your faith in the goodness of God?

The scary thing for me is that many Christians believe as you do and they see God's alleged actions as permission to do evil things if they think it will achieve some good. The Inquisition is a perfect example. The witch burnings, the persecution of mentally ill people, and the killing of gay people are all supported by your attitude.

You're supposed to be a "Christian", Jesus did not advocate nor condone any of those cruel and evil things.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I already addressed that in my first post on this thread.

There have been no significant changes to the originals. What changes there have been we almost certain have already identified. And in fact we know with a high degree of certainty exactly what was in the original letters based on the various copies.

But you are welcome to point out one, just one, change that has changed our ability to know what is in the original.

Why is the Codex Sinaiticus so different from the Bible today? Whole books are in it that have been deleted from ours.

 

[r0beph]

Why is the Codex Sinaiticus so different from the Bible today? Whole books are in it that have been deleted from ours.

Our's today is like a used copy of Cliff's Notes to the original that were found on ebay .

 

[GenSeneca]

On this thread you have not produced anything to show that MMCC is a hoax.

It would be off topic for me to do so, there are several MMCC threads already. So I'll just hit some highlights...

The Christians force me to live by their rules every day of my life, they have hounded me, driven me from my home, threatened my life, beaten and raped people I know, and they have passed laws to take away from us the rights they claim for their own.

Death threats, beatings, rape... these actions do not sound like those of people who could profess to be Christians.

The globe is warming, and if NASA is to be believed so are the other inner planets of the solar system.

I suppose you think humans are also to blame for the inner planets warming?

We have been cutting down forests, and destroying the ecosystems that recycle CO2 while at the same time dumping millions of tons of CO2 and other heat trapping pollutants into the atmosphere.

We as in America, or we as in Human beings as a whole? Because I hate to break it to you but India, China, Russia and several other major CO2 "polluters" could care less about your claims of MMCC and laugh in your general direction.

As for America clear cutting forests and other CO2 eating foliage...

The United States has a total land area of nearly 2.3 billion acres. Major uses in 2002 were forest-use land, 651 million acres (28.8 percent); grassland pasture and range land, 587 million acres (25.9 percent); cropland, 442 million acres (19.5 percent); special uses (primarily parks and wildlife areas), 297 million acres (13.1 percent); miscellaneous other uses, 228 million acres (10.1 percent); and urban land, 60 million acres (2.6 percent).

That's at least 87.3% (potentially 97.4%) of US land with CO2 scrubbing foliage.

If one narrows the discussion to only man made climate change, then I would agree with you, but if one sees mankind as one factor in a large system, then it's obvious that we are having a deleterious effect.

I can take a leak in the ocean and technically I've added to the rising of the sea level but realistically, its not relevant. The same is true for MMCO2 emissions, compared to the natural fluctuation of CO2, our impact is insignificant.

If the heating system in your house won't turn off, but you continue to pile blankets on the beds, then you can honestly claim that the blankets are not causing the heating of the house, but they WILL be a factor in how hot you are when sleeping. Maybe we can't turn down the furnace, but we can start taking the blankets off the beds.

A more apt analogy would be picking lint off the blankets, since that's about all we have control over.

Part of my problem with the whole argument is the insistence in taking such a narrow, black or white view. It IS happening, it's NOT happening. Mankind IS causing it, mankind is NOT causing it. We are part of a system and we have been damaging that system for a long time. Our ability to damage the system seems to grow each generation with our increasing technological power and our burgeoning population.

Blaming technology and population is patently absurd. As we progress technilogically, we massively reduce our impact on the environment. In the 70's we saw smog over every major city, and notice that we no longer have such things as smog, acid rain and the other pollution plagues of the 70's, that's thanks to technology.

Are there people exploiting this issue to make money? Of course, you can't name an issue that someone ISN'T exploiting to make money, but that doesn't mean that every issue is a hoax.

I'm not accusing every issue of being a hoax, only in this case MMCC.

 

[foggedinn]

The bible is both unique and supernatural in nature.

With any other book, the intelligence of the reader determines their level of understanding of the book they are reading. With the bible, the Author determines the level of understanding of the reader.

The smartest man in the world could read the bible and get nothing more out of it than an apparent advocacy of rape and genocide. Whereas a man of no more than average intellect could read it and gain the wisdom to overcome any obstacle.

A knowledge of the Word and a passing understanding of it is the only reason that I'm alive today. Nothing I could do could honor God enough.

 

[r0beph]

Death threats, beatings, rape... these actions do not sound like those of people who could profess to be Christians.

And so it was proclaimed t'was no true scotsman...


Seriously? 102 million people in the US describe themselves as Evangelical[1], born-again christians. The evangelical ideology is very anti-homosexuality and quite often very hate filled in their messages against homosexuality. Maybe you don't consider them Christian's, but as I preceded this with, let me point you towards that little logical fallacy.


[1] http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v17n2/evangelical-demographics.html

 

[GenSeneca]

And so it was proclaimed t'was no true scotsman...


Seriously? 102 million people in the US describe themselves as Evangelical[1], born-again christians. The evangelical ideology is very anti-homosexuality and quite often very hate filled in their messages against homosexuality. Maybe you don't consider them Christian's, but as I preceded this with, let me point you towards that little logical fallacy.

Well if you want to compare fallacies, scuze me while I whip this out...

You are clearly suffering from the spotlight fallacy. Generalizing an entire group based on a small percentage of those who get the most publicity. Good luck finding any self proclaimed Christians on this board who will agree with you that death threats, beatings and rape are consistent with the teachings of Christ.

 

[r0beph]

Well if you want to compare fallacies, scuze me while I whip this out...

You are clearly suffering from the spotlight fallacy. Generalizing an entire group based on a small percentage of those who get the most publicity. Good luck finding any self proclaimed Christians on this board who will agree with you that death threats, beatings and rape are consistent with the teachings of Christ.

Spotlight? "In the year 2000, when 45 percent of the population told the Gallup poll they were Evangelical"[1]. 45 percent is NOT a small percentage.

[1]http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v17n2/evangelical-demographics.html

 

[GenSeneca]

Spotlight? "In the year 2000, when 45 percent of the population told the Gallup poll they were Evangelical"[1]. 45 percent is NOT a small percentage.

Perhaps you missed this part of my response...

Good luck finding any self proclaimed Christians on this board who will agree with you that death threats, beatings and rape are consistent with the teachings of Christ.

Being an Evangelical is not the same thing as supporting death threats, beatings and rape... Nor does being an Evangelical automatically mean that the people who believe in that faith are "hate filled in their messages against homosexuality."

You are trying to equate all Evangelicals with the "God hates fags" group of extremists and that is fallacious. Such claims are quite typical among Anti-Theists bigots but fallacious nonetheless.

 

[r0beph]

Perhaps you missed this part of my response...

Good luck finding any self proclaimed Christians on this board who will agree with you that death threats, beatings and rape are consistent with the teachings of Christ.

Being an Evangelical is not the same thing as supporting death threats, beatings and rape... Nor does being an Evangelical automatically mean that the people who believe in that faith are "hate filled in their messages against homosexuality."

You are trying to equate all Evangelicals with the "God hates fags" group of extremists and that is fallacious. Such claims are quite typical among Anti-Theists bigots but fallacious nonetheless.

Bigots? BIGOTS? That is laughable. I don't care about religion, I don't mind if people are religious, but as soon as your twisted fantasy becomes a driving force in laws that restrict the freedoms of those who choose to live differently from your idealized religious perfection, then yes, those followers of that religious idealism are pathetic hypocrites who really should keep to themselves. I don't expect you to agree, you're already showing symptoms of their like thinking. Evangelicals that I've had the displeasure of coming in contact with are almost ALWAYS very on edge around things they disapprove of.

I know plenty of what I'd consider, good christians. Someone happens to be gay? Oh well, none of their business. They want to get married? That's fine, it doesn't effect them. They're the closest to jesus like christians, not the evangelical fools. I really don't mind religion in any form, until that form begins encroaching on the civil liberties of others, which they oh so very often do.

 

[GenSeneca]

Bigots? BIGOTS? That is laughable.

Anti-Theism is bigotry on the same order that "God hates fags" is bigotry.

I don't care about religion, I don't mind if people are religious, but as soon as your twisted fantasy becomes a driving force in laws that restrict the freedoms of those who choose to live differently from your idealized religious perfection, then yes, those followers of that religious idealism are pathetic hypocrites who really should keep to themselves.

I feel the same way about the welfare statists and Global Warming wackos.

I don't expect you to agree, you're already showing symptoms of their like thinking.

Then it shows ignorance on your part. I too would not like to be forced into living as though I believed in something I did not, be it Global Warming, Welfare statism or theocracy.

Evangelicals that I've had the displeasure of coming in contact with are almost ALWAYS very on edge around things they disapprove of.

But you don't see stereotyping all Evangelicals from your narrow exposure to them as the spotlight fallacy...

I really don't mind religion in any form, until that form begins encroaching on the civil liberties of others, which they oh so very often do.

We can agree that each man should be free to live his life right up to the point where it violates the civil rights of others but its odd you only seem to hold this view in regards to Religion and abandon that view to support such statist policies as national healthcare.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Death threats, beatings, rape... these actions do not sound like those of people who could profess to be Christians.

The Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch burnings, Joan of Arc's execution, the Catholic/Protestant war in Northern Ireland, the lynchings of blacks, the murders and rapes and beatings of gay and transgendered people, the Ku Klux Klan, the genocide of the indigenous Americans... and the list could go on and on were all done by self-identified Christians. Read the Population thread, Dr. Who and I are discussing the Biblical genesis of many cruel and insanely violent acts that can be traced back to things that God is supposed to have ordered or given permission for--something I have serious doubts about. Are you married? Would you have paid 200 human foreskins for your wife? King David did in the Bible, he killed 200 Philistines and cut off their foreskins to give to Saul for his daughter's hand in marriage. Doesn't sound particularly godly to me, does it to you?

I suppose you think humans are also to blame for the inner planets warming?

Senseless sarcasm like this does nothing to foster your credibility. Are you aware of the warming of the other planets in our solar system?

We as in America, or we as in Human beings as a whole? Because I hate to break it to you but India, China, Russia and several other major CO2 "polluters" could care less about your claims of MMCC and laugh in your general direction.

Does that make them right?

As for America clear cutting forests and other CO2 eating foliage...I can take a leak in the ocean and technically I've added to the rising of the sea level but realistically, its not relevant. The same is true for MMCO2 emissions, compared to the natural fluctuation of CO2, our impact is insignificant.

The sewage pollution that closes so many beaches around the world and pollutes so many water ways is not caused by humans?

A more apt analogy would be picking lint off the blankets, since that's about all we have control over.

From your perspective, do humans have any substantive impact on the Earth?

Blaming technology and population is patently absurd. As we progress technilogically, we massively reduce our impact on the environment. In the 70's we saw smog over every major city, and notice that we no longer have such things as smog, acid rain and the other pollution plagues of the 70's, that's thanks to technology.

I didn't blame techonolgy per se, it's the things that technology allows us to do. We had bad smog problems before we cleaned up auto exhaust, how do you think the world's air quality will be affected when India and China have the same auto density numbers that we have?

I'm not accusing every issue of being a hoax, only in this case MMCC.

Unlike you, I'm not willing to dismiss our impact until I have far more proof one way or the other, I have a pretty much open mind on this. I've been wrong too many times in my life to be willing to shout "Hoax!" without the proof in hand.

It isn't just American forests, in fact the rain forests are the ones being destroyed the fastest. Do you think that the disappearance of the benthic and pelagic fisheries is not due to over-fishing by people? Salmon stocks? The Passenger Pigeons? The whales? The Great Auks? Are all of these things just "lint on the blanket"? Or do humans have a profound impact that we are just now beginning to understand?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Perhaps you missed this part of my response...

Good luck finding any self proclaimed Christians on this board who will agree with you that death threats, beatings and rape are consistent with the teachings of Christ.

Being an Evangelical is not the same thing as supporting death threats, beatings and rape... Nor does being an Evangelical automatically mean that the people who believe in that faith are "hate filled in their messages against homosexuality."

You are trying to equate all Evangelicals with the "God hates fags" group of extremists and that is fallacious. Such claims are quite typical among Anti-Theists bigots but fallacious nonetheless.

To a certain extent I agree with you in that not all of any group can be characterized identically. However, when all the people in the religion use essentially the same book, consider it God's Word, and that book has things in it that can, and have been, used--historically--to justify slavery, selling of one's children, rape, murder, genocide, incest... and a very long list of other things, then one has found a common thread that ties all Christians together. Whether they all use the things in the Bible to the same end is of course a personal choice, but enough of them have done so to pass anti-gay laws in every State in the Union (some of those laws have been struck down now) and they have managed to pass anti-gay marriage amendments in over half the States in the Union. Those amendments apply to transsexual people like Joan of Arc too, despite the fact that transsexuals are no more likely to be homosexual than anyone in any other demographic group.

It is true that one cannot accurately accuse all Evangelicals of being members of the "God hates fags" fringe, but equally one must look at the facts too. In Oregon the Legislature passed equal rights and civil union laws, at the public hearings in Salem EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO SPOKE AGAINST THOSE LAWS WAS A SELF-IDENTIFIED CHRISTIAN. I have never been able to find any nationwide group opposing gay and transsexual rights who was not religiously-based.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

The bible is both unique and supernatural in nature.

With any other book, the intelligence of the reader determines their level of understanding of the book they are reading. With the bible, the Author determines the level of understanding of the reader.

The smartest man in the world could read the bible and get nothing more out of it than an apparent advocacy of rape and genocide. Whereas a man of no more than average intellect could read it and gain the wisdom to overcome any obstacle.

A knowledge of the Word and a passing understanding of it is the only reason that I'm alive today. Nothing I could do could honor God enough.

I'm glad you have found something that works for you. I know people who feel the same way about the Book of Mormon, the Koran, and a long list of other "holy" texts. Can all of you be right? Can it be that God speaks to each of us in the way we can best understand, or do you believe that ONLY your holy book is the tool that God uses?

 

[PLC1]

Aren't all of the awful things being described as having been condoned by the Bible, the slavery, beating of slaves, etc., all from the Old Testament?

And aren't the teachings of Jesus found in the New Testament?

Doesn't the New Testament supplant the old? Why do we need all of the eye for an eye and stoning adulterers stuff that is being cited? Jesus' teachings are really very simple:

Love thy neighbor as thyself,
Do unto others as you would have them to do unto you,
Turn the other cheek
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
Judge not that ye be not judged

Sounds really simple, not that Christians have historically followed those teachings, of course, but isn't that what Christianity is all about?

And, wouldn't this world be a far better place if even a clear majority of people were to follow that simple philosophy?