1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Discuss politics - join our community by registering for free here! HOP - the political discussion forum

The Concept of God

Discussion in 'Culture & Religion' started by Idris, Dec 9, 2008.

  1. Idris

    Idris New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2008
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A human being is a conscious creature – a creature that relies on information to make the essential adjustments in life.

    Every human being learns, the target of which is set right from the onset. There is no way a person can choose to act contrary to this. We learn so as to live in conformity with the universal design. Without the belief in a designed world, no one would learn – what would be the meaning of learning or the use of memory?

    Principally, there are three things that the mind can identify: the physical objects; the interactions among them; and the meanings/benefits/purposes of the interactions.

    The physical objects are the only things we perceive by the senses. We do not know and we can never know if anything exists apart from the concrete objects.

    However, we do notice that there are interactions among the objects and we definitely understand that the interactions are caused. The cause might be too infinitesimal for us to see even by the most powerful aid known to us; nonetheless, we can suspect it.

    The heart is the centre of our feelings. There are objective as well as subjective feelings. The objective feelings are the feelings we perceive outside the heart while subjective feelings are produced by the heart itself.

    Among the subjective feelings is LOVE. Love is the focus of our conscious existence. Love is stimulated by pleasure and protected by Hatred.

    There are certain sensations that are primarily attractive – they form the bases of all our learning in life. For a thing to become attractive it must be associated with one or more of those primary sensations.

    To associate anything with any of the primary pleasant sensations is to apportion benefit to that thing. A person, by finding a relationship between a thing and the basic pleasure, is uncovering a meaning for that thing. Meaning therefore is the identified benefit of a thing to the heart – the value of a thing.

    In our process of learning, we form concepts (some sorts of abstraction) and give them labels. These abstractions are treated as abstract objects. Whatever we know of an abstract object is derived from our interactions with the concrete objects. Humanity, Justice, Beauty are not concrete; they are few examples of abstract things.

    Allah is not a concrete thing that could be picked up by the mind – Allah is an impression; a meaning; an abstract entity.

    In a human system of learning, a person seeks out the whole and then the details. A human being always struggles to have a holistic concept of his world – we call it world-view. Let us label a world-view as RELIGION.

    In searching for values/benefit/meaning in life, a human being begins to build his concepts into a hierarchy.

    GOD, in our context here, is any object (abstract or concrete) that has the cumulative/highest value in our life. We consider such an object as the source of our pleasure. We revere/worship such god. A god is the central value of our thoughts and activities.

    There is no human being (in this sense) that has no god. It may either be one god or several gods. The god may be either a physical object or an abstract entity.

    Given that our internal set up is to seek for a meaning instead of meanings and the fact that the physical universe has a meaning instead of meanings, it becomes clear that there is just a God instead of gods. We all seek for a holistic meaning in life; not meanings.
     
  2. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Survival would do the trick, our inborn need to try to survive would push us to learn and remember without anything as complex as wishing to "conform" with some "universal design". Or are you saying that animals too only learn and remember so that they can conform with the unversal design? Got anything to support that idea?

    Is this a metaphorical heart to which you refer, or are you meaning the literal heart in the chest?

    What does that mean, "Love is...protected by Hatred"?

    Attractive sensations form the basis of all our learning? My guess would be that unpleasant sensations like being burned would form the basis of at least SOME of our learning, wouldn't they?

    I don't think that is true, use the environment as an example. It's the very fact that people have focused on the details to the exclusion of the holistic view that has brought us to the crisis we now face. As long as individuals were getting the things they needed/wanted they didn't care a whit about the whole system and only now are they discovering that the ecosystems are holistic, tied together in a Gordian knot.

    Most religions are not holistic either, they are exclusive rather than inclusive, their focus is on one prophet, one book, one philosophy, one set of rules, and everyone/everything else is considered profane.

    So you are including things like worshipping money or power?

    I don't see anything to support your singular versus the plural search where meaning is concerned, but I gather that you are saying we are hardwired to believe in a diety.
     
  3. Idris

    Idris New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2008
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Let us put it this way. Would there be any reason for learning/remembering if you are sure that what happens now will have no any connection with what will happen in future?

    What is survival and why do you think that what you are doing presently will keep you alive in future?

    Without an inherent belief in design - that NOW is connected to Past and Future, there will be no learning because the word will not have any meaning in the first place.


    I am not referring to the literal heart rather I am talking about the seat of subjective feelings. We do feel love (a coded feeling) physically in our chest.


    You do not hate a thing until it is perceived as a threat to what you love. So, hatred is a protection for your love.


    Right though the feeling of unpleasant sensation is based on our feeling of comfort.


    What you said is true on a larger scale and it is because we are myopic in reasoning . Within the range of physical sight, we perceive the whole then the details.

    Yes

    Looking at the whole means searching for a meaning - that is why we organize. We are still searching for a Universal theory - theory of everything. What could be the motivation for this quest?
     
  4. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    How could ANYONE be sure of that? I don't learn and remember because I'm sure of anything, what's to be sure of? What could a human actually be SURE of in this world? Death, that's about it.

    Trial and error, it worked yesterday so it may work today.

    Plants and animals live, learn, adapt, and remember, are you telling me that they all have an inherent belief in "design"?

    The rest of you post seemed subltely off-kilter somehow, your perspective is skewed from my point of view--doesn't mean you're wrong, it just means that what you say doesn't fit. Sort of like having my shoes on the wrong feet.
     
  5. Idris

    Idris New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2008
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It is not possible to talk of learning/knowledge if there is no pattern- what will it mean?

    At least you are here now having conversation and expecting me to understand what you are saying. What is the basis of this your expectation? What is English Language and what is Writing? Are they meaningless? How could they be meaningful yet there are no patterns???

    Why do you design a machine in a specific way and not just in anyway? Why do you look for patterns if everything is by chance and there is no guide? What is learning?

    You are forced to learn by your inventor/designer/creator because there is no way you can act otherwise (so long you are conscious). Whoever or Whatever is responsible for your existence must belief in design if not he/it will not have imposed learning on you. It is part of your nature to look for pattern/design.

    So it worked yesterday? At least you have expectation. May be you are not sure!

    Plants and animals, like our computers, learn, adapt and remember because the DESIGNERS/MAKERS belief in patten/design if not they would not have been special to attract our attention this much. What make them different from dead and ordinary stones?
     
  6. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Why do you think stones are dead or ordinary when they are made of the same things we are and by the same Designer?

    I think we need to start our discussion on a smaller scale like this because your perspective is difficult for me to comprehend.
     
  7. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Sorry, Mare... you're wrong:

    And Taxes.
     
  8. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    You got enough lawyers you don't have to pay taxes--just lawyers.:(
     
  9. Idris

    Idris New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2008
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Did you say STONES and WE? May be we are mere stones since we are made of the same things! How am I even sure that some of the posts here are not made by stones?

    In organization of things, some exist at a lower level of the pyramid and are therefore ordinary/simple compared to those at the higher level - the difference between simple and complex.
     
  10. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,776
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Horse Country

    One does sometimes wonder.:D

    Anyway sometimes a bit of levity is nice (and I was not referring to anyone in particular when I said that).
     
  11. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    So posting on the internet is what makes us not "dead" and not "ordinary"? Are you postulating a heirarchy of value as well?
     
  12. Idris

    Idris New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2008
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Let me make it even simpler:

    Computer can only understand on and off (1 and 0) This is the basic language. Assembly language (which is a step above it) is based on this basic language.

    Then there is the more advanced language which is easier for us to use as human beings. Most people interact with computers without the knowledge of the basic language.

    As human beings, we have the characteristics of a stone but in addition, we are organized as plants and as animals. That is what makes stone ordinary as far as we are concerned. If we regard our special organization as living, we may as well consider a mere stone to be dead.

    If you do not mind, let me know your definition of value first.
     
  13. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I have no sense that anything can be considered "mere" but that's just me.

    The issue isn't "value" but rather hierarchy, are there things above and things below in value by whatever your definition of value is?

    I keep trying to get a sense of you. Where are from? Age? I'm in the northwest US and I'm nearly 60.
     
  14. Idris

    Idris New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2008
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Let us consider value to mean benefit. A benefit is either a relief or an entertainment.

    Value therefore is either a mere (only) relief or entertainment or the combination of the two.

    We are more attracted to the combination if all other things are constant.

    In searching for values/benefit/meaning in life, a human being begins to build his concepts into a hierarchy.

    What was a proper noun soon becomes a common noun then an idea. A baby may first consider the word GOOD to be the name of a thing then a common name then an adjective.

    Values are not in hierarchy rather concepts are. Value increases and decreases depending on our thoughts. A thing may have one or several values which affects the overall value of that thing.
     
Loading...

Share This Page