Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by Mr. Shaman, Jan 17, 2009.
Whew!! First, torture....and, now this!!
What's a John Wayne fan to do??!!!
I have no political affiliations, but I can tell you this:
Any country that removes its capital punishment systems, actually falls to higher degrees of criminal behaviour.
Perhaps one of the biggest falls of peaceful society, comes from so called 'human rights' activists. This is not to say they are not good to have in a 'few' instances, but removal of LAW systems, to introduce luxurious living in prisons, for people that have defied society wilfully - well, thats all questionable.
Of course, most have very worldly and humanitarian views, until they themselves become the victims of crime.
The death penalty , compared to the number of innocent people that have been executed in violent crime, has no comparison at all. Everyone that gets a death penalty is bound to claim innocence , and yes you may argue that in a few cases, the law gets it wrong.
Its interesting to know exactly what 'resource' gets wasted in the 'death penalty'.
Its all very subjective matter..but lets see..Consider some person that raped your 3 year old, then cut off their body parts to sell to 'witchdoctors' and remorselessly says 'thats cool , I'd do it again'. The death penalty may seem too mild for your emotions then.
That person then serving life, with no parole , but enjoying 3 meals a day, gym facilities, satellite tv, better medical treatment than most, and to a large extent actually feeling 'at home' in that environment surely takes up a whole lot more in resource.
I dont think the state actually makes a dash to execute 'innocents' on a massive scale, but you can be sure that criminals intending to do others bodily harm,and worse will have no problem with exploring the extents of their capabilities, knowing that the worst punishment they can receive is actually a life in their element.
Yet another example of legislators doing everything in their power in matters that really require less attention. I'm sure if you contacted that same governor about 'the influences of criminals on the youth at schools' , he might say thats a parental issue, and not really within his pay grade to address.
Your trying to argue with irrational feel good policies, using facts and truth. You can't win.
It's not clear, Andy, to whom you are addressing your comments.
Less than 40 of the States have a death penalty law. Texas killed 26 people in 2007, more than half of the 42 people executed. Since 1930 Texas has killed almost twice as many people as any other State, and since 1977 has killed nearly 4 times as many. If the death penalty was any kind of a deterent one would think that we would have seen a drop in serious crimes in Texas by now.
Crime stats don't seem to support the death penalty as a deterent, even in the States that do not have a death penalty we don't see criminals taking over, do we?
You forgot to provide the statistics to support your position (and, we're in such great company).
I don''t have stats for US, but neither does that governor's quote.
All it is, is subjective talk, the same as mine may seem. You take his word at face value, and believe it without scrutiny, but instantly request stats from someone else??
If and when the capital punishment does get removed, you will have new stats within a short period, and you might want to wait around to see that violent crime will increase.
Resources to take care of remorseless murderers, far outweighs the resource of imposing the death penalty where applicable.
A someone stated, it says Texas executed 26...not 260 000.
If you get the stats of how many people were actually murdered in comparison to those caught and convicted,and set that beside this stat, it may not be such a timid figure. I'd wager the figure exceeds a few thousands.
Someone that wishes to merely make chief political accomplishments, is usually very good at ignoring reality.
You might consider that its actually you on the clock, because repealing bills that protect society even in small ways, are a bit like opening Pandora's Box. Most people hold the view that laws now suit the violator, more than the violated. In everyday occurrence, its why criminal lawyers are 'famous'...they're good at getting guilty people off the hook by using technicalities. When you do see a real display of 'justice' its actually rare.
It would seem to me that if one State is killing four times as many as any other State, but yet there is no measurable incidence of crime between the States, that this might suggest the death penalty is ineffectual.
Join the ranks of other "conservatives", here, who make-up their own Absolutes, as well.
....Another reason to stick with the Electoral College.
Much like any lynch-mob, the Majority/most-people aren't always right.
....And, who'd know best?
State size, demographic makeup and a string of other factors may make up general stats, so it would be difficult to make a simple comparative between 2 different states.
You also have to remember that many crimes actually go unreported for various reasons.
State budgets also vary, and one state may have more resource than another, and one may have less.
I don't think any state takes joy in executing people, or that legal counsels just flip a coin and say 'ok, lets fry 4 today'.
Nobody really likes 'law' , and some seem pretty harsh.
There are laws against speaking on mobiles while driving, and many take the lives of others while doing such things. Chances are, many dont get caught, and if accidents arise from such things, it just goes down as 'collision'. People still do it anyway.
What may seem inneffectual today, can open doors that nobody may want to walk through tomorrow. Its difficult to go back.
It's a bit like free trade. The doors opened, contrary to what should have been highly regulated with laws, so today you see US in financial turmoil. People may now suggest all kinds of things to bring into law now, like outlawing imports exceeding 20% of whats produced locally etc, but all these thoughts are too late.
Laws, are what societies are built on, and once erased theyre very difficult to reinstate, because with the repeal of one, come the ripple effects that erode others.
In many gruesome murders today, you quite commonly hear sudden pleas of insanity : then, theres an enquiry which seems to manytimes conclude insanity, so its easily a plea of insanity. The stats of how many criminals get off scot free , are probably scary too.
As harsh as that death penalty may seem, there is enough iron proof around that many hard and remorseless criminals do deserve to be erased from society. The human rights issue ( which in fact should not apply to people that wilfully violate the right to life ) only hinges on isolated incidences of the law being in error.
At an overall average, even you would find evidence to support the fact that the application of the law in the cases of the death penalty being applied probably takes more factors into consideration than other avenues of punishments.
Let's say there were 3 brutal rapists in your immediate vicinity,and you'd already been attacked twice , is that two times too many , or would you consider yourself just collateral damage ? Some consider that a murder of soughts, because it can kill people mentally.
Law is very simple, when one has not been an actual victim , and rationalizing the 'rights' perpetual violators is 'profitable' , but all things have a price.
I'd think if someone in Gov. O'Malley's immediate family were actually mindlessly slain, his political accomplishment would suddenly take on a new meaning for him.
As I say, in politics , political ambition, and pointscoring is a far cry from reality and justice.
I suppose that the differences between the states are really just too small to run objective statistics, really...
Tell you what--compare the crime statistics here with someplace that's really hard on crime like Saudi Arabia!
We are not comparing two States, we are looking at 50 States:
Deterrence & Murder of Police Officers - According to statistics from the latest FBI Uniform Crime Report, regions of the country that use the death penalty the least are the safest for police officers. Police are most in danger in the south, which accounts for 80% of all executions (90% in 2000). From 1989-1998, 292 law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in the south, 125 in the west, 121 in the midwest, and 80 in the northeast, the region with the fewest execution - less than 1%. The three leading states where law enforcement officers were feloniously killed in 1998 were California, the state with the highest death row population (7); Texas, the state with the most executions since 1976 (5); and Florida, the state that is third highest in executions and in death row population (5). (FBI, Uniform Crime Reports, Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, 1998)
The effectiveness of the death penalty is just another one of those urban myths, a piece of common wisdom that isn't wise. Killing bad people appeals to our sense of revenge, it makes us feel safer while it paradoxically decreases our safety. About all one can say for it is that it reduces recidivism, but that doesn't make any impression on the criminals--they aren't that thoughtful or perceptive, they don't learn from the experiences of others or they wouldn't be in the criminal business.
Cross-cultural comparisons like that are difficult to do because there are so many variables. I have seen a comparison of drug trafficking stats between the US and China a few years ago. Drug dealers at that time were summarily killed in China, whereas in the US they were arrested, tried, sentenced, etc. There were no measurable differences between the two countries, in either one you could buy any drug you wanted almost anywhere. I have heard that at one time the Soviet Union executed drunk drivers who killed someone, but it didn't deter drunks in any measurable amount.
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