The Disaster

[Libsmasher]

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american people."
- H. L. Mencken

A sort of perfect storm of forces combined to give the presidency to a leftwing, inexperienced, unqualified, unaccomplished person of very questionable character, denying it to one of america's greatest living heroes and a man great depth of experience.

Just some of the many factors coming together to produce this disaster:

1. The republicans allowing the lib media and the democrats get away with the fraud of hanging the recent economic crisis, a consequence of democrat policy and the efforts of leftwing "activists", on the republicans, with no response.

2. The widespread inability of many people to grasp the profound consequences of defeat in iraq, whatever the reasons for starting the war.

3. The general ignorance of the negative consequences of socialized medicine - probably millions of idiots have never thought further than "the government will pick up my medical bills - cool."

4. The growing power of the illegal alien invaders. The children of the last batch legalized, by Reagan in the 1980s, are now of voting age, mostly unassimilated, but well aware of which party it is that can be counted on to continue the invasion, eventually resulting in a country within a country in the US southwest - a new, unassimilated, not to be assimlated, hispanic nation with no identification with or loyalty to the US.

5. The near monolithic support of blacks for obama. The election for them was an existential experience - a validation of their lives by seeing someone of the same skin color attain the presidency. That is a great irony - they thereby verified the racist credo that skin color is what really matters.

6. The huge bot army - millions of young people whose fervor is inversely proportional to their grasp of history, policy, and economics.

7. The vast organized anti-McCain defamation system on the net. Scores of lies about McCain were spread, millions of people saw the lies, and the truth could never catch up with all the people who saw the lies.

8. The lib establishment, rich people who have never gotten over their irrational racial guilt, who have tried for 20 years to get a black president, ANY black president, missing with successively Jesse Jackson, Colin Powell, Harold Ford, and finally hitting paydirt with obama.

9. The lib media - formerly content to inject bias in to the news with usually a little subtlety, indirection, and sophistication, pulled out all the stops and spent a year "covering" the campaign with a wholesale, blatant, naked bias that probably would make even Dan Rather blush. This is probably the last "gift" from the dying parts of the lib media establishment - the soon to fade into history big city lib monopoly newspapers, and the broadcast networks with their shrinking viewership and revenue.

10. Huge numbers of uneducated middle and lower class white people, who apparently think (all historical evidence to the contrary notwithstanding) that statism is the answer to all their problems. Boy, will they be surprised.

11. The repeated blunders by the McCain campaign - only the most recent one being to appear on SNL to be laughed at by new york libs - what was he thinking??

As of now, the US doesn't really have any "politics" at the national level - what passes for politics will just be occasional disputes between the liberal viewpoint represented by congress, and the leftwing mind of obama. The country has signed up for leftwing government, presided over by the most leftwing person since FDR - a person whose writing and statements show that he fully supports the classic leftist religion that all good comes from the state. The uninformed people are about to get an unforgettable lesson in exactly what that means. The one consolation is the often-repeated observation that in a democracy, people get the government they deserve. Unfortunately, they will drag me down too.

 

[Stalin]

What do you tell your children to do when they are beaten at sport by another team ?

You tell them to go and shake the hand of the players in the other team.

Comrade STalin

 

[Libsmasher]

What do you tell your children to do when they are beaten at sport by another team ?

You tell them to go and shake the hand of the players in the other team.

Comrade STalin

Oh, I get ya - my country has just suffered an historic, devastating setback - but I'm supposed to be a "good sport" about it, as if it were merely losing a football bet at a gentleman's club??????

 

[GenSeneca]

What do you tell your children to do when they are beaten at sport by another team ?

You tell them to go and shake the hand of the players in the other team.

Comrade STalin

Riiiiight.... cuz thats what the Left did in 2000 and again in 2004....

Its time to start undermining the Obama administration and calling for impeachment.... that was the reaction from the Left toward the victorious Bush administration.

 

[vyo476]

Just some of the many factors coming together to produce this disaster:

It isn't a "disaster" yet. Did the very election of Barack Obama somehow directly negatively impact you? Did the money just drain straight out of your savings account as soon as the election was called? Did a lightning bolt descend from the heavens, striking you down as McCain conceded?

No. The man's presidency hasn't even started yet and already you're calling it a disaster. Could you at least try to remain objective, to observe before judging?

1. The republicans allowing the lib media and the democrats get away with the fraud of hanging the recent economic crisis, a consequence of democrat policy and the efforts of leftwing "activists", on the republicans, with no response.

And why is that, exactly? I've seen plenty of compelling evidence on the forum that you're right about this, and yet to my knowledge not a single Republican in government has so much as brought it up. What gives?

2. The widespread inability of many people to grasp the profound consequences of defeat in iraq, whatever the reasons for starting the war.

Would those be like the "profound consequences" of our withdrawal from Vietnam? Seems we won the larger Cold War despite pulling out of Vietnam.

3. The general ignorance of the negative consequences of socialized medicine - probably millions of idiots have never thought further than "the government will pick up my medical bills - cool."

Unfortunately, socialized medicine could only work as wealth redistribution, it's true. Also unfortunately, some of our far less fortunate citizens require that kind of thing.

4. The growing power of the illegal alien invaders. The children of the last batch legalized, by Reagan in the 1980s, are now of voting age, mostly unassimilated, but well aware of which party it is that can be counted on to continue the invasion, eventually resulting in a country within a country in the US southwest - a new, unassimilated, not to be assimlated, hispanic nation with no identification with or loyalty to the US.

Once again, is this kind of like how the Irish in the 19th Century refused to "assimilate" and give up their Catholicism?

5. The near monolithic support of blacks for obama. The election for them was an existential experience - a validation of their lives by seeing someone of the same skin color attain the presidency. That is a great irony - they thereby verified the racist credo that skin color is what really matters.

Sometimes people need a symbol as much as they need anything else. Barack Obama is a symbol of progress for black Americans - a symbol of the idea that it is possible for them to raise up through the American system. That's not an idea that resounds much amongst black Americans - so the symbol, a living symbol, is that much more potent.

6. The huge bot army - millions of young people whose fervor is inversely proportional to their grasp of history, policy, and economics.

Sadly, I agree with you here. Many of my own friends fall into this category. First we were the apathy generation - record low voter turn-outs amongst the youngest demographics up until this year. Now, after educational institutions the country over have stepped up efforts to get youngsters interested in politics, we have plenty of young voters - but few informed young voters. One wonders if perhaps we were better off with apathy.

7. The vast organized anti-McCain defamation system on the net. Scores of lies about McCain were spread, millions of people saw the lies, and the truth could never catch up with all the people who saw the lies.

Oh, please, there were at least as many "Barack Obama is the anti-christ" and "Barack Obama is a terrorist" things going around.

Here's an article on the apallingly numerous fact distortions from this campaign:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081103/ap_on_el_pr/fact_check_campaign_s_most_wanted#full

8. The lib establishment, rich people who have never gotten over their irrational racial guilt, who have tried for 20 years to get a black president, ANY black president, missing with successively Jesse Jackson, Colin Powell, Harold Ford, and finally hitting paydirt with obama.

I like the idea of a black man being the President of the United States. I won't lie - I think that's a very positive symbol for the progress of race relations in this country.

That said, that symbol wasn't enough to get me to vote for him. Even the "bots" we've discussed previously weren't taken in entirely by race, but by a message of vague "hope" and "change" which reverberates with people with a strong desire for both who also don't possess clear definitions of what either entail.

I have reservations about the direction he will be taking this country in - mostly because I'm unsure of what direction he will be taking this country in. I was pretty sure that I disliked the direction John McCain was going to take the country in. So the choice was: vote for someone whose path is unknown, or vote for someone whose path is disliked? The choice, in the end, had nothing to do with race.

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, so if you'd like to offer up some evidence of what you claim, we can debate it then.

9. The lib media - formerly content to inject bias in to the news with usually a little subtlety, indirection, and sophistication, pulled out all the stops and spent a year "covering" the campaign with a wholesale, blatant, naked bias that probably would make even Dan Rather blush. This is probably the last "gift" from the dying parts of the lib media establishment - the soon to fade into history big city lib monopoly newspapers, and the broadcast networks with their shrinking viewership and revenue.

Again, I find myself agreeing with you. All I can say is that anyone who votes based on what their newspaper tells them isn't wise, no matter what swing is being put on the information.

10. Huge numbers of uneducated middle and lower class white people, who apparently think (all historical evidence to the contrary notwithstanding) that statism is the answer to all their problems. Boy, will they be surprised.

Again, agreement. We'll see where Obama's new spending programs go - or whether they go at all.

11. The repeated blunders by the McCain campaign - only the most recent one being to appear on SNL to be laughed at by new york libs - what was he thinking??

I think possibly their biggest blunder was that the campaign seemed to destroy the quality that made John McCain a great leader - that "maverick" quality that they made constant reference to but has more or less shrivelled since he announced his candidacy. John McCain used to be the guy who'd tell you to go stick it no matter what party you belong to. I miss that John McCain. I might even have voted for that John McCain. Instead, the campaign turned him into the one thing no one wants more of - a party politician.

As of now, the US doesn't really have any "politics" at the national level - what passes for politics will just be occasional disputes between the liberal viewpoint represented by congress, and the leftwing mind of obama. The country has signed up for leftwing government, presided over by the most leftwing person since FDR - a person whose writing and statements show that he fully supports the classic leftist religion that all good comes from the state. The uninformed people are about to get an unforgettable lesson in exactly what that means. The one consolation is the often-repeated observation that in a democracy, people get the government they deserve. Unfortunately, they will drag me down too.

So in essence, this is the manifesto of your martyrdom, yes? Wouldn't it behoove you to wait until it's actually begun?

 

[vyo476]

Riiiiight.... cuz thats what the Left did in 2000 and again in 2004....

So what are you saying, that if we do it, it makes it okay for you to do it?

Tell me, by that rhetoric, how does one maintain even a semblance of the "moral high ground," so to speak?

Its time to start undermining the Obama administration and calling for impeachment.... that was the reaction from the Left toward the victorious Bush administration.

That was the reaction from many on the left - and it was ridiculous. Impeachment is a serious matter and needs to be treated that way. Idiots like Kucinich introducing impeachment bill after impeachment bill just degrade the effectiveness of the measure - it's hard to take it seriously when you keep seeing it over and over again.

We've just gone through eight years of that kind of foolishness. We don't need another four.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Bush stole the election in 2000 and then proceeded to destroy the economy and the reputation of thee US and boy was he successful

Any one who is not delighted that there is change from this corrupt and incompetent collection of self-seekers is probably just angry that there is a black man in the whitehouse.

 

[Pandora]

So what are you saying, that if we do it, it makes it okay for you to do it?

Tell me, by that rhetoric, how does one maintain even a semblance of the "moral high ground," so to speak?



That was the reaction from many on the left - and it was ridiculous. Impeachment is a serious matter and needs to be treated that way. Idiots like Kucinich introducing impeachment bill after impeachment bill just degrade the effectiveness of the measure - it's hard to take it seriously when you keep seeing it over and over again.

We've just gone through eight years of that kind of foolishness. We don't need another four.

I said everything you said all through the clinton years then I scratched my head all through the bush years wondering why people were so cruel. The hate the vile hate had surpassed anything Clinton ever dreamed of. I am not going to say that this year because you have to treat a snake like a snake, snakes dont understand sheep talk and I am not going to pretend they do.

When people make mistakes in life we dont condone the mistake or pretend its not a mistake. At least we shouldnt.

 

[Agnapostate]

You forgot to mention the massive voter intimidation conducted by the Black Panthers. El Rushbo would be disappointed that you didn't copy his list in its entirety.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Yeah that was it.

They intimidated tens of millions of voters to vote for Obama.

You know who really intimidated the electorate into voting democrat?

McCain, Palion, Bush, Cheyney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Wolfwitz etc

 

[Libsmasher]

Quote:
Just some of the many factors coming together to produce this disaster:

It isn't a "disaster" yet. Did the very election of Barack Obama somehow directly negatively impact you? Did the money just drain straight out of your savings account as soon as the election was called? Did a lightning bolt descend from the heavens, striking you down as McCain conceded?

Like saying 30 minutes before it sunk, but was sinking, the Titanic "wasn't a disaster yet". Obama's long list of advisers reads like a who's who of the american left wing. There is a lonnnnnngggggg list of the far left legislative agenda that has been dormant, not even tried for the last two years because of Bush's certain veto. Now they will all come forth like the periodic emergence of locusts. Examples: the "Reproductive Heath Act" - or whatever Orwellian title it has now, which will legislate an absolute right of abortion for any female at any stage of pregnancy for any reason. The "Pay Equity Act", which will establish boards of bureaucrats to second guess every commercial firm's pay for all women. Obama's iron-clad promise to abandon iraq with a rigid timetable, unprecedented in american history, is an OBVIOUS dream come true to every IF. I'm supposed to feel all warm and cozy because all this and lots more of the leftwing agenda, pent up, for the 28 years since the last monolithic dem rule under Carter, doesn't hit the fan the day after the election??

Quote:
1. The republicans allowing the lib media and the democrats get away with the fraud of hanging the recent economic crisis, a consequence of democrat policy and the efforts of leftwing "activists", on the republicans, with no response.

And why is that, exactly? I've seen plenty of compelling evidence on the forum that you're right about this, and yet to my knowledge not a single Republican in government has so much as brought it up. What gives?

Don't ask me to explain other people's irrational behavior. After the bank and wall street failures started coming, McCain picked up the "we need regulation" mantra. Although I supported McCain as the least worse choice, one shouldn't forget that he is a RINO. The democrats have a built-in advantage with all such issues, because the pro-statist side is amenable to slogans and brief sound bites. It takes around 15 minutes of reading to understand the roots of the defaults, too much to get into a political ad, and of course the obama cheerleading lib media wouldn't delve into it.

Quote:
2. The widespread inability of many people to grasp the profound consequences of defeat in iraq, whatever the reasons for starting the war.

Would those be like the "profound consequences" of our withdrawal from Vietnam? Seems we won the larger Cold War despite pulling out of Vietnam.

Please, not another irrelevent vietnam comparison. We won the cold war because of 45 years of determined mostly rear guard actions all over the world, by many individuals and presidents such as truman, kennedy, and reagan. The vietnam war, although lost by the democrats' "best and brightest" yalies and harvard types who thought they knew better than generals how to win a war, at least showed the communists that the US couldn't simply be rolled over. And it DID have profound consequences - the collapse of three southeast asian countries into communism. Would the murder of one fourth of Cambodia be considered a profound consequence?

Quote:
3. The general ignorance of the negative consequences of socialized medicine - probably millions of idiots have never thought further than "the government will pick up my medical bills - cool."

Unfortunately, socialized medicine could only work as wealth redistribution, it's true. Also unfortunately, some of our far less fortunate citizens require that kind of thing.

To take care of our less fortunate citizens doesn't require socialized medicine - we already have Medicaid to do that. Probably the LEAST thing to worry about socialized medicine is that it redistributes wealth.

Quote:
4. The growing power of the illegal alien invaders. The children of the last batch legalized, by Reagan in the 1980s, are now of voting age, mostly unassimilated, but well aware of which party it is that can be counted on to continue the invasion, eventually resulting in a country within a country in the US southwest - a new, unassimilated, not to be assimlated, hispanic nation with no identification with or loyalty to the US.

Once again, is this kind of like how the Irish in the 19th Century refused to "assimilate" and give up their Catholicism?

COMPLETELY false comparison. Irish immigrants came here LEGALLY. Religion isn't within the purview of assimilation. Assimilation means you learn the language, understand the history, generally adopt the cultural mores, identify and commit to the country. None of this is happening, nor will it happen with the hispanic invaders, who are a tidal wave numerically compared to the irish drop in the bucket. They maintain close contact with the home country through instant communication and easy transportation across borders. They listen to dozens of spanish language radio stations, and watch about five spanish language TV stations HERE. They are taught in spanish. They get a spanish option on phone trees. They get a spanish language ballot when they vote. They even can still vote in mexican elections if they become citizens - that, to help tie them to the home country. They get a political perspective from groups like La Raza that "Azatlan" (the southwestern US) is part of mexico and they're taking it back. Etc etc etc - does this sound ANYTHING like previous immigrations?

 

[Libsmasher]

Quote:
5. The near monolithic support of blacks for obama. The election for them was an existential experience - a validation of their lives by seeing someone of the same skin color attain the presidency. That is a great irony - they thereby verified the racist credo that skin color is what really matters.

Sometimes people need a symbol as much as they need anything else. Barack Obama is a symbol of progress for black Americans - a symbol of the idea that it is possible for them to raise up through the American system. That's not an idea that resounds much amongst black Americans - so the symbol, a living symbol, is that much more potent.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the tiresome double standard that is always used on behalf of blacks. With regard to racial voting, it's "racist" when whites do it, but a "symbol" when blacks do it. And a symbol of what?? As to what blacks need, they need to pull themselves together and get with the program - this country has given them practically every privilege one could imagine.

Quote:
6. The huge bot army - millions of young people whose fervor is inversely proportional to their grasp of history, policy, and economics.

Sadly, I agree with you here. Many of my own friends fall into this category. First we were the apathy generation - record low voter turn-outs amongst the youngest demographics up until this year. Now, after educational institutions the country over have stepped up efforts to get youngsters interested in politics, we have plenty of young voters - but few informed young voters. One wonders if perhaps we were better off with apathy.

Yes there are lots of efforts by the lib establishment to get them interested in politics, or rather voting, so that their inexperience and naivete can be exploited for political purposes. Many (most?) of these people don't have a real job yet, a family, 401ks, medical problems, or much else to connect them with the real world. They will discover the practical consequences of their obamamania in the future.

Quote:
7. The vast organized anti-McCain defamation system on the net. Scores of lies about McCain were spread, millions of people saw the lies, and the truth could never catch up with all the people who saw the lies.

Oh, please, there were at least as many "Barack Obama is the anti-christ" and "Barack Obama is a terrorist" things going around.

Absolutely, utterly false - there has NEVER been anything to compare with the massive anti-McCain slander on the net, by paid organized shills and their tens of thousands dupes, with the possible exception of the five years of appeaser distortions of George Bush.

Here's an article on the apallingly numerous fact distortions from this campaign:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081103/...st_wanted#full

Your article is full of BS - it purports to know the final total of Obama's spending - imposssible. The objection to McCain's figure for the cost of imported oil is nitpicking - the FACT is that there has been a HUGE transfer of wealth that will continue if something isn't done about it. You want to trade off such nitpicks against the MASSIVE defamation of McCain? What a laugh. It's claim that almost everyone won't end up in the government system, just because obama says so, reveals the typical shallowness of current day "journalism". The advantage to employers of dumping their company insurance plans in favor of a tax will be irresistable - almost all company-sponsored plans WILL disappear.

Quote:
8. The lib establishment, rich people who have never gotten over their irrational racial guilt, who have tried for 20 years to get a black president, ANY black president, missing with successively Jesse Jackson, Colin Powell, Harold Ford, and finally hitting paydirt with obama.

I like the idea of a black man being the President of the United States. I won't lie - I think that's a very positive symbol for the progress of race relations in this country.

What dreck - in this very critical juncture of history for our country, people actually will vote for an unqualified leftwing extremist, whose policy positions represent in detail EXACTLY what we don't need now, because they like his skin color????

That said, that symbol wasn't enough to get me to vote for him. Even the "bots" we've discussed previously weren't taken in entirely by race, but by a message of vague "hope" and "change" which reverberates with people with a strong desire for both who also don't possess clear definitions of what either entail.

The "hope" and "change" reverberates with the legions of idiots-with-a-vote, who don't like what prevails, but are too intellectually lazy to carefully analyze the issues and discover that the "change" they are being offered will be a disaster.

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, so if you'd like to offer up some evidence of what you claim, we can debate it then.

I've done that for about a year here - where have you been, on vacation?

Quote:
11. The repeated blunders by the McCain campaign - only the most recent one being to appear on SNL to be laughed at by new york libs - what was he thinking??

I think possibly their biggest blunder was that the campaign seemed to destroy the quality that made John McCain a great leader - that "maverick" quality that they made constant reference to but has more or less shrivelled since he announced his candidacy. John McCain used to be the guy who'd tell you to go stick it no matter what party you belong to. I miss that John McCain. I might even have voted for that John McCain. Instead, the campaign turned him into the one thing no one wants more of - a party politician.

So instead, everyone voted for obama based on the ibecilic "change" mantra.

Quote:

As of now, the US doesn't really have any "politics" at the national level - what passes for politics will just be occasional disputes between the liberal viewpoint represented by congress, and the leftwing mind of obama. The country has signed up for leftwing government, presided over by the most leftwing person since FDR - a person whose writing and statements show that he fully supports the classic leftist religion that all good comes from the state. The uninformed people are about to get an unforgettable lesson in exactly what that means. The one consolation is the often-repeated observation that in a democracy, people get the government they deserve. Unfortunately, they will drag me down too.

So in essence, this is the manifesto of your martyrdom, yes? Wouldn't it behoove you to wait until it's actually begun?

"Martyrdom" has nothing to do with it. I deal with REALITY. I adopted this idea when I was still a kid living in poverty in the ghetto. I began to notice that I succeeded when I took the sharpest-eyed look at how things and persons really ARE, not what they purport to be or how they are packaged. I've both formally and informally studied politics and history all my life, and the handwriting is on the wall for anyone who will look past the slogans.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

An alternative way of putting it is that the US has had a bellyful of republican maladministration

 

[Mr. Shaman]

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american people."
- H. L. Mencken

A sort of perfect storm of forces combined to give the presidency to a leftwing, inexperienced, unqualified, unaccomplished person of very questionable character, denying it to one of america's greatest living heroes and a man great depth of experience.

Just some of the many factors coming together to produce this disaster:

1. The republicans allowing the lib media and the democrats get away with the fraud of hanging the recent economic crisis, a consequence of democrat policy and the efforts of leftwing "activists", on the republicans, with no response.

2. The widespread inability of many people to grasp the profound consequences of defeat in iraq, whatever the reasons for starting the war.

3. The general ignorance of the negative consequences of socialized medicine - probably millions of idiots have never thought further than "the government will pick up my medical bills - cool."

4. The growing power of the illegal alien invaders. The children of the last batch legalized, by Reagan in the 1980s, are now of voting age, mostly unassimilated, but well aware of which party it is that can be counted on to continue the invasion, eventually resulting in a country within a country in the US southwest - a new, unassimilated, not to be assimlated, hispanic nation with no identification with or loyalty to the US.

5. The near monolithic support of blacks for obama. The election for them was an existential experience - a validation of their lives by seeing someone of the same skin color attain the presidency. That is a great irony - they thereby verified the racist credo that skin color is what really matters.

6. The huge bot army - millions of young people whose fervor is inversely proportional to their grasp of history, policy, and economics.

7. The vast organized anti-McCain defamation system on the net. Scores of lies about McCain were spread, millions of people saw the lies, and the truth could never catch up with all the people who saw the lies.

8. The lib establishment, rich people who have never gotten over their irrational racial guilt, who have tried for 20 years to get a black president, ANY black president, missing with successively Jesse Jackson, Colin Powell, Harold Ford, and finally hitting paydirt with obama.

9. The lib media - formerly content to inject bias in to the news with usually a little subtlety, indirection, and sophistication, pulled out all the stops and spent a year "covering" the campaign with a wholesale, blatant, naked bias that probably would make even Dan Rather blush. This is probably the last "gift" from the dying parts of the lib media establishment - the soon to fade into history big city lib monopoly newspapers, and the broadcast networks with their shrinking viewership and revenue.

10. Huge numbers of uneducated middle and lower class white people, who apparently think (all historical evidence to the contrary notwithstanding) that statism is the answer to all their problems. Boy, will they be surprised.

11. The repeated blunders by the McCain campaign - only the most recent one being to appear on SNL to be laughed at by new york libs - what was he thinking??

As of now, the US doesn't really have any "politics" at the national level - what passes for politics will just be occasional disputes between the liberal viewpoint represented by congress, and the leftwing mind of obama. The country has signed up for leftwing government, presided over by the most leftwing person since FDR - a person whose writing and statements show that he fully supports the classic leftist religion that all good comes from the state. The uninformed people are about to get an unforgettable lesson in exactly what that means. The one consolation is the often-repeated observation that in a democracy, people get the government they deserve. Unfortunately, they will drag me down too.

Gee.....lemme guess......WorldNutzDaily, again?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Its time to start undermining the Obama administration and calling for impeachment.... that was the reaction from the Left toward the victorious Bush administration.

Yeah.....what were we thinkin'......besides PRECEDENCE?