The Economy

[Andy]

That's a myth. You can have universal health care for everyone and have the elite who want "top notch" care to pay extra for it or whatever. We just want a guarantee that if our kid gets appendicitis, we don't have to become homeless to afford the operation and hospital stay.

You can see our point surely?

I see your point completely. And if that was the case, I'd be on your side. The problem is, that isn't the case.

Maybe you failed to read my post, but I'll repeat it again. If you want the news article, I'll be more than happy to post it.

A man in Canada, a student at a college, went in because he was in pain. They diagnosed him with Appendicitis. He needed emergency treatment.

For hours the doctor phoned around looking for a surgery team to do the operation. Finely he was sent in an ambulance to the hospital in another city... which was full and could not help. He was sent to three different hospitals, all of which could not help. There wasn't the staff or room available to give care.

He was finely sent to the US where he was helped immediately.

This was one of hundreds sent to the US for medical treatment because socialized care ALWAYS fails.

Do you understand what would have happened if the evil US capitalist system did not exist? Do you understand that if not for OUR hospitals being there, this college student would have died?

Now, I'm telling you straight up... if we copy a socialist system like Canada... you, or the people in your life are going to die. Yes, you'll save money... but people are going to DIE.

If we copy Canada, we can't send our people up north to their hospitals to save us from our socialized system, like they send people here to save from their socialized system.

So if I have to choose between saving peoples lives at the risk of financial ruin, or have people die but save some cash, I'm saving lives. People can recover from bankruptcy. Death is a permanent thing.

 

[Andy]

If the US spent as much on heakthcare and infrastructure as it does on war there would be no unemployment in the US and no credit crunch,

That's an ignorant statement. People who say such things know nothing about which they speak. When you boil down the entire 'credit crunch' to the very basics, it's people borrowing money they could not afford to borrow. It doesn't matter if you make $100K a year, if you borrow too much money, you'll end up bankrupt.

If the US spent the entire budget on health care, that would not stop one single person from taking out a loan they can't afford to repay. Therefore, it would not stop any of the so-called "credit crunch".

Further, if the US spent the entire budget on health care, there would be hundreds of thousands of people unemployed from the military, there would still be people living off of welfare, there would still be businesses closing. It would change none of that, therefore it wouldn't end unemployment.

Tell me, is there any topic you do know something about? Even one?

And everyone would be looked after if they got sick.

In the UK, the waiting list to get "looked after" is 1 million people long... with 40K of which have been on the list for over a year. That doesn't seem like their getting looked after. Moreover, everyone here that goes to a hospital does get treated. I don't know anyone who is sick, but isn't getting looked after here, it just costs a lot of money.

But what's that worth when you can go killing people thousands of miles away.

When they are a threat to our security, yes we will.

Come on Libs, Andy, put me straight on my dastardly plan to get some good done for people.

I know I am an evil atheist who likes to help the poor and you are good christians who like to persecute and kill them,

When I look around the world at all the atheist that claim to do what you say, more people die under your kind of "help".

Cubans are willing to die to swim them and their families away from an atheist that claims to help the poor.

Under your control, people would die. That's all there is too it. Yes you can claim to want to help the poor, but you'd kill them. Just like Canada, like Cuba, like Venezuela and all the other socialists that came before you.

 

[Andy]

Yahoo! Alerts Yahoo!


Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 10:02 AM PDT
WASHINGTON (AP) Paulson says financial crisis is 'embarrassing for the United States of America'




gosh, Ya think??

*****

Sihouette You make some very good points. (and very reasonable ones Kinda sad to see that some refuse to budge from their american dream fantasy , and see that it is and has been a nightmare for some time. It is imploding as we "speak". The general pop has been kept in the dark, fed BS until the cracks split open and we are seeing the reality for what it is And it ain't good.

Interesting lies, are still lies. He can make up anything he wants, but that doesn't mean it actually applies to the real world. Do either of you ever have any real points to make, or just a ranting dismissal of the situation, devoid of facts?

 

[Shadow]

I see your point completely. And if that was the case, I'd be on your side. The problem is, that isn't the case.

Maybe you failed to read my post, but I'll repeat it again. If you want the news article, I'll be more than happy to post it.

A man in Canada, a student at a college, went in because he was in pain. They diagnosed him with Appendicitis. He needed emergency treatment.

For hours the doctor phoned around looking for a surgery team to do the operation. Finely he was sent in an ambulance to the hospital in another city... which was full and could not help. He was sent to three different hospitals, all of which could not help. There wasn't the staff or room available to give care.

He was finely sent to the US where he was helped immediately.

This was one of hundreds sent to the US for medical treatment because socialized care ALWAYS fails.

Do you understand what would have happened if the evil US capitalist system did not exist? Do you understand that if not for OUR hospitals being there, this college student would have died?

Now, I'm telling you straight up... if we copy a socialist system like Canada... you, or the people in your life are going to die. Yes, you'll save money... but people are going to DIE.

If we copy Canada, we can't send our people up north to their hospitals to save us from our socialized system, like they send people here to save from their socialized system.

So if I have to choose between saving peoples lives at the risk of financial ruin, or have people die but save some cash, I'm saving lives. People can recover from bankruptcy. Death is a permanent thing.

So DON'T copy Canada. who says you have to?? Not only that...... the post sounds like a hysterical piece of tripe...... which is sensationalizing ONE example. One such example is NOT the norm. So that makes it a weak "arguement."Furthermore.... I and others can site numerous examples of shoddy , neglectful care in the US. But what will that achieve?? And that does not begin to cover the hi risks for law suits. ......that prevent or make a medical team hesitate before providing treatment for fear of.

Students in Medicine take their residencies in Canada as they prefer the QUALITY of CARE there. The focus is on the PATIENT and care there of. as opposed to the bottom line.$$$$$$ I know Many US students that come through the system as I worked with them at one time. Most never went back to the US . (mind you this is some time ago. I hear that even more apply -outside the US-for their residencies and specialties now)


Would not be boasting about the US systems at the moment. As they are virtually ALL in deep trouble. Health care for a population should not even be an issue. It is equal in importance ......if NOT MORE SO.. than education. AN unhealthy population can't work, the unemployed rise in numbers , and THIS affects the overall economy too.

again........ when the dollar ( losing value as it is) is the bottom line...not the PEOPLE..... what is happening now is the result.


Seems that some are so blinded by their own BELIEFS that they have lost grip on what is the current REALITY.....and it ain't good at all. Such IRRATIONAL fear of "socialism" or any other "ism" is a symptom of weakness and narrow mindedness.


But lets not digress from the Mismanaged US economy which is affecting folks world wide.

where is the US going to get the MONEY to fund their coming WARS?? ( elective mass slaughter) and how will the troops / families get paid?? More borrowing ?? China already owns the US ( if one is going to be technical about it. ...... so the US had better mind its P's and Q's when dealing with China and other nations it is in debt to. It won't be long (at this rate) before the US is ignored as it is already losing its "influence" but will be reminded of the chips owed.

The US is NOT bargaining ( or THREATENING as is its MO) from a position of strength.


There is no "american dream". There never was. It was a fantasy that has been sold to the gullible . Now the reality is an american NIGHTMARE. and the US has no one to blame but itself.

 

[GenSeneca]

Health care for a population should not even be an issue.

Its not an issue.

Hospitals are not permitted by law to turn anyone away, regardless of their ability to pay and they don't even need to be a US citizen.

Such IRRATIONAL fear of "socialism"

Socialism is Slavery... it requires an abdication of our Constitutional Rights.

All life is associated with risk: Socialism seeks to eliminate all those risks, for the "Common Good", and they attempt to accomplish that goal by infringing on Individual Liberty of others.

 

[Andy]

So DON'T copy Canada. who says you have to?? Not only that...... the post sounds like a hysterical piece of tripe...... which is sensationalizing ONE example. One such example is NOT the norm. So that makes it a weak "arguement."

Hundreds of people come to the US from Canada every year, for treatment because their socialized system doesn't work. It's one story of thousands. The point was to illustrate the problem. First I can't list every story because I do not know all of them. Second, even if I did know all of them, to post them all would get me banned for spamming them across this forum.

Why is it you are so willing to assume that this clear cut case is just an anomaly? I can detail similar examples from across the planet. Did you know in the UK patients just 'expect' to wait a year to get just 'admitted' to the hospital? Just to be admitted! It's so normal for them to wait forever, they expect it! In the US, if people wait a few hours to get a hospital room, they think it's outrageous! In switzerland, people wait up to two years just to get a hip replacement surgery!

It's not just one example. There are thousands of them. It's not even one country, it's nearly every country I have ever investigated for socialized medicine. Bottom line... it... does... not... work. No worky! Bad system.

There's only two systems in the world. System A: you pay for service. System B: government pays for service, which they still make you pay it in taxes, and a lot more in taxes than you would if you just paid it yourself.

So if not Canada, whom would you copy? It's either capitalism or socialism.

Students in Medicine take their residencies in Canada as they prefer the QUALITY of CARE there. The focus is on the PATIENT and care there of. as opposed to the bottom line. I know personally the number of US students that come through the system as I worked with them at one time. Most never went back to the US . (mind you this is some time ago. I hear that even more apply for their residencies and specialties now)

Funny, but the *patients* who have used both the US system and the Canadian system, say the opposite. In fact, one of the biggest complaints is, you are treated inhuman in the Canadian system. Now... maybe the student prefer the Canadian system... but patients do not.

Patients who go to Canada are appalled by how they are treated like no more than a number. A product to be shipped in, fixed, and shipped out. Patients routinely complain they have little time to actually talk with the doctor. He's in, whips out a prognosis, and poof, off to the next patient.

Patients who come to the US are shocked at how nice everyone is, how they treated well, and how they can talk with the doctor in depth.

Why? Because in Canada, you are not a customer, your a number. The hospital has no reason to make you happy. They get paid for the NUMBER of people they treat, not how well, or how happy they are, or how they are treated. In the US, you are a customer. If you are not happy, you'll spend your money at a different hospital, and they know this. So they try and please you and treat you well.

Also, because doctors are paid per patient visit, and since the government pays so little, they have to make up for that with volume. Volume means more people faster, so they pack in 20 patients a day.

See you are looking at it from the wrong angle. If a student likes the system, that doesn't mean it's good. It's when I can go to the ER and get served and not be sitting in pain for hours or even days, and get good quality service. Yes it's expensive, but at least I get it. And for as expensive as it is, it is still cheaper than the taxes required for these socialized systems.

Would not be boasting about the US systems at the moment. As they are virtually ALL in deep trouble. Health care for a population should not even be an issue. It is equal in importance ......if NOT MORE SO.. than education. AN unhealthy population can't work, the unemployed rise in numbers , and THIS affects the overall economy too.

So which is better:
Socialism: Getting sick, and waiting a YEAR to be admitted to a hospital.
Capitalism: Getting sick, and being helped and cared for immediately, but have to pay for it?

I choose B.

The value of the dollar and this issue, are not connected. Moving on.

Seems that some are so blinded by their own BELIEFS that they have lost grip on what is the current REALITY.....and it ain't good at all. Such IRRATIONAL fear of "socialism" or any other "ism" is a symptom of weakness.

What you just said was based on nothing. I base my information on data and research. Social-ism always fails. It always does. Every single time. If you can show ONE TIME, that it did not fail... feel free! I'd love to hear it.

If I could show any evidence at all, anywhere at anytime, that socialized health care worked... I'd be for it! Who wouldn't? Free health care? And I pay nothing? Sweet! But... it's not true.

You claim this and that, but have zero evidence to support it. Yet I have clear conclusive evidence to support my views, yet you want to claim I'm irrational? Don't make me laugh.

where is the US going to get the MONEY to fund their coming WARS?? ( mass slaughter) and how will the troops / families get paid?? More borrowing ?? China already owns the US ( if one is going to be technical about it. ...... so the US had better mind its P's and Q's when dealing with China and other nations it is in debt to. It won't be long (at this rate) before the US is ignored but will be reminded of the chips owed.

The US is NOT bargaining ( or THREATENING as is its MO) from a position of strength.


There is no "american dream". There never was. It was a fantasy that has been sold to the gullible . Now the reality is an american NIGHTMARE. and the US has no one to blame but itself.

No American dream? Have you heard of Dave Thomas? The story behind Snapple? The story being Google? The story of Napster? Apple computer? HP? Did you ever watch the movie "Pursuit of Happiness"? Rush Limbaugh? Alex Spanos? Dave Ramsey? There are millions of America success stories. If you think the American dream is over, your socialist medical care failed to check your eyes.

I do agree we are in debt. The problem is, the government is spending too much. Paying for socialized medicine is not going to reduce federal cost, so I don't see a point. That like saying 'the reason people are broke is because they haven't spent enough'. Try making a real point.

Blaw blaw China blaw blaw war blaw blaw mass slaughter (and other unsupportable conspiracy theories) blaw....

These issues are not connected and you have been proven wrong on so many of these cheeze conspiracy, montana tin foil covered shack theories, why do you keep repeating them? Do you think a lie becomes true if you say it enough?

 

[Sihouette]

That's an ignorant statement. People who say such things know nothing about which they speak. When you boil down the entire 'credit crunch' to the very basics, it's people borrowing money they could not afford to borrow.~ Andy

No, it isn't ignorant saying that investing in infrastructure is an intelligent idea, any more than it is ignorant saying that investing in basic supplies for a company to produce a better product is a bad idea, or that investing in worker's safety or profit-sharing to improve production and innovation is a bad idea.

Idiot! It's people who think like you, with blinders on, who have ransacked our economy to the state it's in now.

You take away the burden of healthcare and accident insurance from employers, guess what? They can afford more employees. More employees mean more AMERICAN jobs. More American jobs means more Americans who can afford the loans they apply for. People want a roof over their head, clothes and food on the table...are you saying they're a-holes for going for money that would allow them those basic things?

You've got a lot of nerve and a "let them eat cake" mentality of blind-thinking when it comes to the basics of an economic system. It all starts with the lowly worker pal...

People want to work. They want to afford their bills. They cannot BECAUSE AMERICAN LEGISLATION HAS ALLOWED THEIR ONLY MEANS OF DOING SO TO BE SHIPPED OVERSEAS. And that happened because of universal healthcare being shot out of the sky by GOP skeetshooters (lobbiests) keeping medical care privatized, married to ripoff insurance companies who rape employers with unbelievable premiums, causing them to lobby to be able to outsource jobs in order to stay competitive.

Basic needs and healthcare are at the base of what is wrong with our country.

That is, for those who can do the math...

 

[Libsmasher]

Check out how socialized medicine works in the UK. If you are REALLY sick, it's die, or hop on a plane to india.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/feb/01/health.india

What "Universal health care" real means is "get on the six month waiting list, or go out there somewhere in the universe and find a way to keep yourself from dropping dead".

 

[PLC1]

Check out how socialized medicine works in the UK. If you are REALLY sick, it's die, or hop on a plane to india.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/feb/01/health.india

What "Universal health care" real means is "get on the six month waiting list, or go out there somewhere in the universe and find a way to keep yourself from dropping dead".

OK, I know that there are members of this forum who live in nations that have universal care. I'm posting a new thread, just for them, asking how many would trade their system for ours.

I did that on another forum, BTW, and got no takers, none, zero. Maybe things have changed, or maybe this forum is different.

We'll see.

 

[top gun]

Check out how socialized medicine works in the UK. If you are REALLY sick, it's die, or hop on a plane to india.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/feb/01/health.india

What "Universal health care" real means is "get on the six month waiting list, or go out there somewhere in the universe and find a way to keep yourself from dropping dead".

Hey everybody... guess what this Mr. DEREGULATOR John McCain had as part of his no Healthcare Plan. Complete DEREGULATION OF IT!!! YEP!

If we'd had listened to Bush/McCain we'd have a privatized Social Security System in the tank with our current Republican economic meltdown AND if McCain could win he'd slam our Healthcare System with no over-site and put it in the same bag as what Wall Street is going through right now!

McSame knows 2 things and 2 things only. WAR solves everything and DEREGULATION is golden. Can't find the keys to any of his 13 cars... but he knows how to find WAR & DEREGULATION!

He's a total failure.

 

[Andy]

No, it isn't ignorant saying that investing in infrastructure is an intelligent idea, any more than it is ignorant saying that investing in basic supplies for a company to produce a better product is a bad idea, or that investing in worker's safety or profit-sharing to improve production and innovation is a bad idea.

No, it really is an ignorant statement. If you want to defend plain ignorance, that's your choice, but when we are 10 trillion in debt, and are running a defeicit, and complain about China loans.... the answer is not to spend more. You don't save money by spending more.

And you can't tell me our economy is going to boom if we do this because France has ran a deficit since 1985 when they put in place their socialized care, and if you look at their economy... it's not booming. China is booming... cause they are moving to capitalism, and divesting of nationalized industries. (this is so obvious, I feel like I'm teaching an elementary school class)

If you read up on companies that go bust, and disband, one tall tell sign is a increase in spending (normally on the ignorant theory that doing so will increase profit) when they are not in the black. Clearly you have never run a business, or you'd know that.

Idiot! It's people who think like you, with blinders on, who have ransacked our economy to the state it's in now.

If it because of people like me that we are in a growing economy, and people like you that led to the 1999 recession... then we need more like me.

You take away the burden of healthcare and accident insurance from employers, guess what? They can afford more employees. More employees mean more AMERICAN jobs. More American jobs means more Americans who can afford the loans they apply for. People want a roof over their head, clothes and food on the table...are you saying they're a-holes for going for money that would allow them those basic things?

Short term gain, long term pain. Socialized medicine is horrible. Yeah you'd take the burden away, but people would die in hospitals like they do in other socialized health care nations. I don't want the blood of those people on my head. I realize you do, and that's why I am against your policies.

Further, yes I am. Because if we have a socialized health care system, you might enjoy free health care for a short time, but in the long run your children are going to be forced to pay the insane taxes to cover that system. Tell me, what good is all those jobs going to bring when you lost more than half your income in taxes? What's the point? You saved us from a spider bite to get bitten by a king cobra?

It's idiocy like this from people with no evidence or factual support, that pushing for policy that will kill people.

You've got a lot of nerve and a "let them eat cake" mentality of blind-thinking when it comes to the basics of an economic system. It all starts with the lowly worker pal...

You have made broad accusation, insult and hearsay... but NO EVIDENCE! NOTHING supports your foolish theories.

People want to work. They want to afford their bills. They cannot BECAUSE AMERICAN LEGISLATION HAS ALLOWED THEIR ONLY MEANS OF DOING SO TO BE SHIPPED OVERSEAS. And that happened because of universal healthcare being shot out of the sky by GOP skeetshooters (lobbiests) keeping medical care privatized, married to ripoff insurance companies who rape employers with unbelievable premiums, causing them to lobby to be able to outsource jobs in order to stay competitive.

I feel like I'm arguing with a two year old. Just bright enough to spout words, but with no substance to them. Do you not understand that someone has to pay for health care? Do you not understand that other socialized health care systems get people killed? Do you need me to post all the articles? Maybe it's time for another 'why I believe' post with all the articles covering how bad health care is in socialized nations.

Look... if all your greedy heart cares about is health care costs... that's fine... but understand people will die. You are openly stating for all of us to see, that the almighty dollar is more important to you than the health of the public.

You claim, people want to work, and they want to afford their bills. Ok... How are people going to work when their sick and have to wait a year and a half just to get ADMITTED to a hospital, like they do in the UK? How are people going to work if they can't cause they broke their hip, and have to wait 2 YEARS... to get surgery like they do in Canada or Scandinavia?

How are people going to pay their bills when 50% of their income goes to government? I pay $1,500 a year for health insurance. Under a socialized system, I'd pay nearly $10,000 in taxes. Under which plan would I more likely be able to pay my bills?

See, you say a bunch of stuff, but you really don't know the facts. You have no evidence, nothing to support the nutty things you say.

That is, for those who can do the math...

Apparently when they taught you how to punch buttons on a calculator in school, they failed to teach you critical thinking, logic, and the basics of research, or you would know that socialism... and socialized health care, fails horribly in every single nation it's used.

 

[Andy]

OK, I know that there are members of this forum who live in nations that have universal care. I'm posting a new thread, just for them, asking how many would trade their system for ours.

I did that on another forum, BTW, and got no takers, none, zero. Maybe things have changed, or maybe this forum is different.

We'll see.

My problem with that line of thinking is, do we know that this forum is an accurate representation of the entire population? How much have the people on this forum specifically, dealt with their health care system? Up till last year, I never dealt with our health care system. If you had asked me last year, I might have said yay or nay, without having any real experience.

Further, even if you do find someone that did go to the hospital in a socialized health care country, what type of treatment did they have? Some basic things like splinting a broken arm, might be done very well for free... while other more complicated things like the Heart by-pass, or a hip replacement, or something else, the system might fail horribly.

Some problems might not even be known to someone who responds. For example, people in the UK who need medication for arthritis, only 15% get the latest greatest medications. Why? Because the government pays for them, and since the government doesn't have infinite amounts of money, they simply don't buy them. It's not an option. Only those with private insurance can get the newer, better, less side effects, medications. So a patient may think their getting the best treatment, when if fact there are better medications out their, they don't know about them because their government won't buy them.

Finely, and this is a big issue. Latent failure. This is the idea that when socialism first starts, everything works wonderfully (normally), but as it goes on, the system crashes, as all socialism does. France is a perfect example. In France, it's free, it's universal, it's tax payer funded, it's peachy it's great... That was 1985... but that system has been in deficit every single year. They raised taxes, raised taxes, raised taxes and the economy suffered, but it still didn't cover the cost. The health care deficit in France is projected to be 66 Billion. People pay over 50% of their income in taxes, and still the system is bankrupt. Now they are cutting services. And future cuts, and higher taxes are in the works as we speak.

Now an end user may not know this, may think the system is wonderful... but it's still failing! The system does not work... Again... even if you find a french guy who says it's great, the system is crumbling around them, whether they 'like' the system or not. Of course if their as lame as I think, they likely have a bunch of nutty people saying the reason their system is killing people and failing, and crashing around them is "bigoil" and if they just embraced Geothermal power, over nuclear, then all these socialized medical problems would disappear.

 

[Shadow]

America Pays the Piper, Big Time

By Robert Parry
September 24, 2008


After a 28-year binge of drunken optimism and blind nationalism – often punctuated by chants of “USA, USA!” and “We’re No. 1!” – Americans are waking up with a painful hangover, facing a grim “morning in America,” not the happy vision that Ronald Reagan famously sold them on.


As the United States begins to assess how the nation got into its trillion-dollar bailout mess, a true understanding must go back three decades or so when Reagan deployed his well-honed communications skills and the Republican Right mastered the dark arts of propaganda to get the American people to shed the annoying strictures of rationality.

In the 1970s, there had been stumbling efforts by three presidents – Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter – to begin confronting stubborn structural problems, such as a growing dependence on foreign oil, environmental damage, and excessive military spending which had sapped resources away from a productive economy.

Nixon helped create the Environmental Protection Agency; he imposed energy-conservation measures; he opened the diplomatic door to communist China; and he initiated “détente” with the Soviet Union. But his presidency foundered on the rocks of his political paranoia that led to the Watergate scandal.

President Ford tried to continue many of Nixon’s policies, particularly winding down the Cold War with Moscow and slimming down the bloated Pentagon budget, which had fed what President Dwight Eisenhower dubbed the “military-industrial complex.”

However, confronting a rebellion from Reagan’s Republican Right in 1976, Ford abandoned “détente”; he let hard-line Cold Warriors (and a first wave of young intellectuals called neoconservatives) pressure the CIA’s analytical division; and he brought in a new generation of tough-minded operatives, such as Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.

After winning in 1976, President Carter injected more respect for human rights into U.S. foreign policy, a move some scholars believe put an important nail in the coffin of the Soviet Union, leaving it hard-pressed to justify its repressive internal practices.

At home, Carter proposed a comprehensive energy policy and warned Americans that their growing dependence on foreign oil represented a national security threat of the first order, what he called “the moral equivalent of war.”

However, powerful vested interests managed to exploit the shortcomings of all three of these presidents to sabotage any sustained progress. For instance, Carter’s prescient energy address was widely mocked as the “MEOW speech.”

and he was right all along. but he was not heard because the heavy handed right undercut him at every turn. My they HATED HIM .to the point their hatred blinded them to anything rational

Soon, the American people were persuaded to turn away from their real-world challenges and enter a land of make-believe. Don’t worry, they were told. Be happy.

Reagan as Piper..........

More here:http://consortiumnews.com/2008/092408.html

 

[Andy]

Hey everybody... guess what this Mr. DEREGULATOR John McCain had as part of his no Healthcare Plan. Complete DEREGULATION OF IT!!! YEP!

If we'd had listened to Bush/McCain we'd have a privatized Social Security System in the tank with our current Republican economic meltdown AND if McCain could win he'd slam our Healthcare System with no over-site and put it in the same bag as what Wall Street is going through right now!

McSame knows 2 things and 2 things only. WAR solves everything and DEREGULATION is golden. Can't find the keys to any of his 13 cars... but he knows how to find WAR & DEREGULATION!

He's a total failure.

Well since I have actually researched the situation instead of spouting partisan politically motivated drivel, I, to my own surprise, agree with McCain on this. Thanks for giving me another reason to vote for him.

 

[Andy]

America Pays the Piper, Big Time

By Robert Parry
September 24, 2008

blaw blaw blaw lies blaw blaw partisan crap blaw blaw more lies blaw...

Wow, you can cut and paste lies onto the forum. Of course garbage is still garbage no matter where you repeat it.