The holy trinity

[numinus]

Re: to numinus

I quite agree. the topic was the Holy Trinity, so I just posted some thing I knew about it. I thought it would be interesting for some to know there is direct reference to it in Quran.

Im not a bit surprised that the quran has something to say about the holy trinity. After all, the nicene creed pre-dates islam by more than two centuries.

Nevertheless there are many other verses that are common with what is written in bible, and we believe that the whole religion is the same, except that a more complete version of it has been revealed to prophet Muhammad.

I have no problem with you believing the quran to be 'more' complete. After all, completeness is not the issue of the world community with your religion. It is the interpretation of the quran by goat-herders-turned-demagogues that leaves much to be desired.

You might as well have a look at my last post in The monstrous Christian / Islamic God:

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=87496&postcount=68

I should look at your post because....?

Any particular reason?

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: to numinus

I have no problem with you believing the quran to be 'more' complete. After all, completeness is not the issue of the world community with your religion. It is the interpretation of the quran by goat-herders-turned-demagogues that leaves much to be desired.

I never agree with what some like taliban do in the name of islam, but first we should have a look at the state of the world we're living in. Where zionists justify their bomb raids on palestineans with verses of torah that promises them the land, and where christians leave their foot out of politics and justify their silence against cruelty in the world by the "turn your face over" reasoning (here I mean the true christians, never mind some like Bush which also claim to be so; adding them would just make a greater mess!);
... just what else do you expect?
Does all these stop you to try to find what the true religion is?
And may I ask "who" or "what cause" you think has made this demagogue impression of muslims throughout the world. I sure am upset with my side not being so successful in showing the right face and put blame on ourselves, but don't you think there is also some propoganda at work?
You have all this news about terrorist bombs with the "Muslim" word beside it, only as a guess!; After all these claims of the international Nuclear Agency about Iran's nuclear activities being peaceful, repeated over and over, USA's government still tries to convince the world that Iran is going for Nuclear weapons; And you probably know now who had trained Bin-Ladan as a terrorist and has tried to make him a symbol of muslim; and also heard some about the attacks of 11th september being self-designed by the US government too!

These are only few examples of the great mess we're in!
But it's good to know that there is a truth and there are people that know the truth and live on it! we just got to look for it;
After all I think it is the religion that saves the world, so I believe we should try harder to find the truth about it.

I should look at your post because....?

Oh, yes, I should have said why! There I have referred to the verses of Quran that talks about this unity of religions. It was in answer to investo7 that had claimed Allah is not God of Jesus.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: to numinus

I never agree with what some like taliban do in the name of islam,

So is violence against either non-muslims or previous muslims ever justified because they are non-muslims or previous muslims?

Is violence against them ever more justifiable than it would be against other muslims because they are non-muslims or previous muslims? Is there a situation where, all other things being the same, violence against the non-muslims or the previous muslims would be ok but it would not be ok in the same situation against muslims?

When it comes to being violent is there a different standard applied to muslims versus non-muslims or previous muslims?

And just what does justify violence according to muslim laws?

 

[numinus]

Re: to numinus

I never agree with what some like taliban do in the name of islam, but first we should have a look at the state of the world we're living in.

Ok. Let's.

Where zionists justify their bomb raids on palestineans with verses of torah that promises them the land,

Its called sovereignty -- or more precisely, the right of a sovereign people to defend themselves. No one is talking about a promised anything.

and where christians leave their foot out of politics and justify their silence against cruelty in the world by the "turn your face over" reasoning

No. I am not silent about the fact that israel has the sovereign right to defend herself from war-mongering goat-herders.

And if, by any chance, you find yourself somehow aiding goat-herders guilty of perpetrating crimes against a sovereign nation, then you can only blame yourself for what happens to you when the $hit hits the fan.

(here I mean the true christians, never mind some like Bush which also claim to be so; adding them would just make a greater mess!);

I believe my country sent some soldiers to help hunt down the taliban in afghanistan. So, I believe we are not complacent christians as you think we are.

... just what else do you expect?

I expect a lot from nations who are members of the international community. For starters, we DO NOT threaten another sovereign nation with annihilation -- as your president did.

Does all these stop you to try to find what the true religion is?

Whatever the 'true' religion is, it certainly isn't the one talking about rewarding a man with 100 virgins in heaven.

Or is it the other way around? Is the arab man supposed to be the punishment of these 100 virgins in hell?

Hmmm? Makes perfect sense.

And may I ask "who" or "what cause" you think has made this demagogue impression of muslims throughout the world. I sure am upset with my side not being so successful in showing the right face and put blame on ourselves, but don't you think there is also some propoganda at work?

Of course there are lots of propaganda!

Iran has neither the guts nor the capability to annihilate israel. Your president is actually selling propaganda, rather than stating an objective truth. So is nasrallah.

You have all this news about terrorist bombs with the "Muslim" word beside it, only as a guess!; After all these claims of the international Nuclear Agency about Iran's nuclear activities being peaceful, repeated over and over, USA's government still tries to convince the world that Iran is going for Nuclear weapons;

When your president promised to annihilate israel and then goes on to enrich uranium and test propulsion systems -- well -- you do the math.

And you probably know now who had trained Bin-Ladan as a terrorist and has tried to make him a symbol of muslim; and also heard some about the attacks of 11th september being self-designed by the US government too!

I think we all know that bin laden orchestrated 9-11. He admitted it himself, didn't he?

These are only few examples of the great mess we're in!
But it's good to know that there is a truth and there are people that know the truth and live on it! we just got to look for it;
After all I think it is the religion that saves the world, so I believe we should try harder to find the truth about it.

Certainly.

When your immam asks you to annihilate an entire nation, he isn't saying it as a religious imperative, is he?

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: to numinus

Its called sovereignty -- or more precisely, the right of a sovereign people to defend themselves. No one is talking about a promised anything.

I don't believe sovereignty brings you right to do anything and I don't believe it is defence.
But why didn't the jews choose some other country that had place enough or were their friends so they didn't have to bomb villages in the first place in order to have a home? The land is Holy for them.
And I would call what they've done and are doing, attacking rather than defending. what kind of defending is killing thousands about half civillians with women and children by radioactive & phosphoric bombs in answer to a few rockets that can only dig a small hole in the ground, which them too were in answer to some other attack, either to their lives or to their rights.

And if, by any chance, you find yourself somehow aiding goat-herders guilty of perpetrating crimes against a sovereign nation, then you can only blame yourself for what happens to you when the $hit hits the fan.

It's not a polite language your's, but I should answer;
First if I or my country happens to be aiding hizbollah or Hamas in anyways, It doesn't feel guilty. However it doesn't help them by military means.
You call what isreal is doing defence, so do I call what hizbollah or Hamas is. And as far as muslims are taught they are brothers, harm to one is harm to other. By trying to help them we help our family, So we are not afraid of what happens to us.

I believe my country sent some soldiers to help hunt down the taliban in afghanistan. So, I believe we are not complacent christians as you think we are.

I didn't mean all christians; But as in the case of US I think the government's intention had always been different from all the nice sounding words the soldiers are taught as the reason fer their sacrifices. If it really was a moral or religious believe that caused it then you're right!

I expect a lot from nations who are members of the international community. For starters, we DO NOT threaten another sovereign nation with annihilation -- as your president did.

He did not threaten! He said it should be wiped off the map! And by that he meant the word "Israel". That means israel doesn't have a right as a established government to exist .There should only be a country named Palestine, which belongs to all palestinians who were forced out of their homes.

Whatever the 'true' religion is, it certainly isn't the one talking about rewarding a man with 100 virgins in heaven.

That's for the starters. Just like a mother that promises her kid a candy if he be good. In order for the child's soul to remain pure until he is a wise adult and can realise good from bad, understand why, and do good for the sake of it. if we don't encourage or threaten a child to & against good and bad deeds at all, wouldn't he end up in a mess before he can stand on his own understanding?
In Islam the final goal is not living in gardens with virgins or etc, it's the God's satisfaction:
4:72 Allah promiseth to the believers, men and women, Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide - blessed dwellings in Gardens of Eden. And - greater (far)! - acceptance from Allah. That is the supreme triumph.

Iran has neither the guts nor the capability to annihilate israel. Your president is actually selling propaganda, rather than stating an objective truth. So is nasrallah.

Well if you believe he is not capable why do you see his word that "should be wiped of map" or "will be annihiliated" as a threaten?
But just remember Iranians were never afraid, and they fighted empty hands against American supported Shah and Saddam. And remember Nasrollah broke the undefeatable vision of the Zionist Army in the 33 days war. He was actually the winner.

When your president promised to annihilate israel and then goes on to enrich uranium and test propulsion systems -- well -- you do the math.

He promised it will be annihilated. He didn't promise he would do it!
He said isreael is a "rotten, dried tree" that will be annihiliated by "one storm."
You know Imam khomeini had told Gorbachof in a letter that The Union Republics of Russia would collapse unless it became a muslim country? and so it did collapse! Was Imam khomeini the cause of it then?

Using this nuclear bomb you're so much afraid of Iran having it and your government justifies all the sanctions,etc by the made-up presumption that Iran is going for it, is against our religious beliefs, because a nuclear war is an unfair war and affects far more than the target; actually the whole world. And It kills not just military but a generation; so using it would be a great sin! But nobody tries to stop Israel which not only has nuclear weapons, but is also using them.

I think we all know that bin laden orchestrated 9-11. He admitted it himself, didn't he?

So what if he did? "Osama Bin Laden was a CIA fabrication and he never stopped working for the US secret service."
Another interseting fact that "Both he and the Taliban in Afghanistan that protects him are products of the 10-year-long, U.S.-backed war against the ex-USSR occupation of Afghanistan. After Russian troops invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the U.S. trained bin Laden and thousands of other Arab men.
Back then, President Ronald Reagan liked to call bin Laden and his cohorts "freedom fighters.""

http://socialistworker.org/2001/377A/377A_02_BinLaden.shtml

I thought you at least should have heard the idea of CIA having a hand at this. If not have a look at the book "The Big Lie" by "Thierry Meyssan" or the film "zero" made by "Giulietto Chiesa".

And here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_The_Big_Lie

http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2008-09-11/Who_was_involved_in_911_Documentary_reveals_shocking_facts.html

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/CIA_Created_Osama.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4582.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlWSv0NZBRw&feature=related

.
.
.

When your immam asks you to annihilate an entire nation, he isn't saying it as a religious imperative, is he?

Imam's word is a "religious imperative" for us, If he actually asks us to do something. But remember our Imam never asked anybody to "annihiliate a nation". He never asks us to kill civillians and women and babies. He asks us to help palestineans get back their home and their control over their country.

 

[foggedinn]

Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord

The words of Jesus quoting what I believe is a passage from the book of Leviticus.

Not only do I accept this passage implicitly, I also believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three aspects of the one God.

Some may see this as illogical. I accept it as a mystery.

 

[numinus]

I don't believe sovereignty brings you right to do anything and I don't believe it is defence.

Then you should go back to your political science teacher to explain to you what sovereignty really means and what a valid and justifiable self-defence looks like.

But why didn't the jews choose some other country that had place enough or were their friends so they didn't have to bomb villages in the first place in order to have a home? The land is Holy for them.

What do you suppose the 2000-year jewish diaspora, culminating in the holocaust and the subsequent establishment of the jewish nation was about, eh?

They TRIED to live in a place far from their roots and they were met with GENOCIDE. So, palestine is as good a place as any to make their last stand.

And I would call what they've done and are doing, attacking rather than defending. what kind of defending is killing thousands about half civillians with women and children by radioactive & phosphoric bombs in answer to a few rockets that can only dig a small hole in the ground, which them too were in answer to some other attack, either to their lives or to their rights.

Again, you are clueless of the idea of sovereignty. The jews were responding to a MANIFEST threat outside its borders. Their government and their military OWE it to their citizens to use ANY AND ALL MEANS to neutralize the threat. If this threat saw it fit to hide behind the skirts of innocent woment and children, then so be it.

This is nothing less than what you would expect from your government.

It's not a polite language your's, but I should answer;
First if I or my country happens to be aiding hizbollah or Hamas in anyways, It doesn't feel guilty. However it doesn't help them by military means.
You call what isreal is doing defence, so do I call what hizbollah or Hamas is. And as far as muslims are taught they are brothers, harm to one is harm to other. By trying to help them we help our family, So we are not afraid of what happens to us.

You cannot call the actions of hamas and hezbollah valid or justifiable self-defense because it is PREMISED UPON THE ANNIHILATION OF ANOTHER SOVEREIGN STATE.

ONE'S RIGHT TO EXIST COULD NOT BE MADE AT THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER'S RIGHT TO THE SAME EXISTENCE.

Understand?

I didn't mean all christians; But as in the case of US I think the government's intention had always been different from all the nice sounding words the soldiers are taught as the reason fer their sacrifices. If it really was a moral or religious believe that caused it then you're right!

I think the military action on afghanistan was justified. The taliban were indeed harboring al qaeda -- the people who carried out the 9-11 attack.

Again, sovereignty.

He did not threaten! He said it should be wiped off the map! And by that he meant the word "Israel". That means israel doesn't have a right as a established government to exist.

That is called a threat. I know of no language and of no context wherein the words of your president is not a threat.

There should only be a country named Palestine, which belongs to all palestinians who were forced out of their homes.

There was no country named palestine prior to israel's declaration of independence. There was a palestinian mandate under the control of uk. And before that, palestine was part of the ottoman empire.

Israel offered citizenship to the palestinian arabs in their declaration of independence. They were given equal representation in the various organs of the fledgling government. This offer was REFUSED.

NOBODY, not the british, nor your muslim brothers ever offered the palestinian arabs their own country.

Only the jews did.

That's for the starters. Just like a mother that promises her kid a candy if he be good. In order for the child's soul to remain pure until he is a wise adult and can realise good from bad, understand why, and do good for the sake of it. if we don't encourage or threaten a child to & against good and bad deeds at all, wouldn't he end up in a mess before he can stand on his own understanding?
In Islam the final goal is not living in gardens with virgins or etc, it's the God's satisfaction:
4:72 Allah promiseth to the believers, men and women, Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide - blessed dwellings in Gardens of Eden. And - greater (far)! - acceptance from Allah. That is the supreme triumph.

While I respect islam as a religion, I cannot believe in it because it offers a god that is ABSOLUTE MAJESTY.

Allah is TRANSCENDENT, not IMMANENT. Divine law that is absolutely transcendent, apart from the human condition, I simply cannot make sense of.

Well if you believe he is not capable why do you see his word that "should be wiped of map" or "will be annihiliated" as a threaten?

Because no sensible individual or nation should suffer such provocative rhetorics.

If arabs are generally sensitive with even the mention of your god in western comicstrips, you should have the common decency to be sensitive about the lives and human existence of others. Unfortunately, you are not. You are only sensitive to your own condition -- NEVER the condition of others.

But just remember Iranians were never afraid, and they fighted empty hands against American supported Shah and Saddam. And remember Nasrollah broke the undefeatable vision of the Zionist Army in the 33 days war. He was actually the winner.

Nasrallah won, eh? I never imagined one could win a war by hiding like a sewer rat. And I'd imagine nasrallah felt brave while hiding in the darkness of his cave.

What he managed to do, however, is destroy the infrastructure of his host country, syria. And because he has no accountability to his host, nor his followers, he can claim whatever ridiculous victory by simply crawling under a rock when the fighting starts.

He promised it will be annihilated. He didn't promise he would do it!
He said isreael is a "rotten, dried tree" that will be annihiliated by "one storm."
You know Imam khomeini had told Gorbachof in a letter that The Union Republics of Russia would collapse unless it became a muslim country? and so it did collapse! Was Imam khomeini the cause of it then?

A president's threat is much more serious than that of a quack fortune-teller. A president has control of its armed forces while the quack has none.

While it is my opinion that iran has no balls to carry out such a lofty threat, israel might actually decide to call you on that threat. I wouldn't want that.

Using this nuclear bomb you're so much afraid of Iran having it and your government justifies all the sanctions,etc by the made-up presumption that Iran is going for it, is against our religious beliefs, because a nuclear war is an unfair war and affects far more than the target; actually the whole world. And It kills not just military but a generation; so using it would be a great sin! But nobody tries to stop Israel which not only has nuclear weapons, but is also using them.

Actually, it is my opinion that the us and her allies are hypocritical about nuclear weapons when they have the bulk of it ostensibly dangling in their pockets.

My stand in this issue is that NO COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

So what if he did? "Osama Bin Laden was a CIA fabrication and he never stopped working for the US secret service."
Another interseting fact that "Both he and the Taliban in Afghanistan that protects him are products of the 10-year-long, U.S.-backed war against the ex-USSR occupation of Afghanistan. After Russian troops invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the U.S. trained bin Laden and thousands of other Arab men.
Back then, President Ronald Reagan liked to call bin Laden and his cohorts "freedom fighters.""

http://socialistworker.org/2001/377A/377A_02_BinLaden.shtml

I thought you at least should have heard the idea of CIA having a hand at this. If not have a look at the book "The Big Lie" by "Thierry Meyssan" or the film "zero" made by "Giulietto Chiesa".

And here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_The_Big_Lie

http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2008-09-11/Who_was_involved_in_911_Documentary_reveals_shocking_facts.html

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/CIA_Created_Osama.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4582.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlWSv0NZBRw&feature=related

.
.
.

I have neither time nor inclination dignifying conspiracy theories. I only have opinions based on facts and logic.

Imam's word is a "religious imperative" for us, If he actually asks us to do something. But remember our Imam never asked anybody to "annihiliate a nation". He never asks us to kill civillians and women and babies. He asks us to help palestineans get back their home and their control over their country.

Then your immam is an accessory to the crimes perpetrated by goat-herders, and should suffer the consequences.

 

[zakiyeh]

I don't like contiuing like this, because I think we're misleading the conversation from what it was about. So I'll try to summarize a bit!

Then you should go back to your political science teacher to explain to you what sovereignty really means and what a valid and justifiable self-defence looks like.

My history teacher might have had different views from yours. It's just the same as I denying the holy trinity which many people have taken for granted.

What do you suppose the 2000-year jewish diaspora, culminating in the holocaust and the subsequent establishment of the jewish nation was about, eh?
They TRIED to live in a place far from their roots and they were met with GENOCIDE. So, palestine is as good a place as any to make their last stand.

I'm not going to argue on that. At least not here. All I wanted to say was that the jews too, some times justify their violence by religious means.

Again, you are clueless of the idea of sovereignty. The jews were responding to a MANIFEST threat outside its borders. Their government and their military OWE it to their citizens to use ANY AND ALL MEANS to neutralize the threat. If this threat saw it fit to hide behind the skirts of innocent woment and children, then so be it.

This is nothing less than what you would expect from your government.

You cannot call the actions of hamas and hezbollah valid or justifiable self-defense because it is PREMISED UPON THE ANNIHILATION OF ANOTHER SOVEREIGN STATE.

ONE'S RIGHT TO EXIST COULD NOT BE MADE AT THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER'S RIGHT TO THE SAME EXISTENCE.

Let's not look at it so much politically and based upon your believed principles of politics; I know they're unavoidable, but just for a while.
I believe any act which is premised upon the annihiliation of injustice and cruelty is justifiable. If the committer won't stop then it will be his/her annihiliation that I justify. This is the main theory. what comes out from the midst of all the political conditions has to be figured out.
You believe in sovereignty, not justice; actually your theory of justice is based upon sovereignty; mine on humanity, so I think we will never meet on this!

While I respect islam as a religion, I cannot believe in it because it offers a god that is ABSOLUTE MAJESTY.

Allah is TRANSCENDENT, not IMMANENT. Divine law that is absolutely transcendent, apart from the human condition, I simply cannot make sense of.

Maybe That's the reason why the christians believe Jesus to be God. So they can feel closer to God. We can argue here that does a man like Jesus have to be God in order for us to get in touch with God. Can't there be humans closer to God with a higher understanding of him and with special attention of God to them who can tell us about him the way we can understand? This is actully what we believe the prophets are doing(And the twelve imams for the shiite).
After all I think a humane God can't be the creator of the human and the world he is stuck up in understanding it!

If arabs are generally sensitive with even the mention of your god in western comicstrips, you should have the common decency to be sensitive about the lives and human existence of others. Unfortunately, you are not. You are only sensitive to your own condition -- NEVER the condition of others.

If we hadn't been so far and had heard about each other from somewhere other than the media, you might have had a different view.
I never forget the word of "imam Ali" (The first imam of shiite after the prophet) that when heard about the enemy attacking houses and pulling earings and anklets from a jewish women who lived in the muslim territory, had said it is unblamable if a man dies, suffering from the sorrow of hearing this news.
I am sensitive about the condition of all kids and women and all that are killed without no reason.
But I am still more sensitive about the existence of humanity. If nasrollah has let women and kids to die or suffer phisically, which has never made them his enemy, israel is killing this "humane sensitiveness" for each other from the very root by ruining the innocent souls of the kids. So I even feel sorry for those jewish kids that are write messages for palestinian kids on rockets!

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ymbz4l.jpg

http://mahdizebardast1386.googlepages.com/untitled.JPG

http://i43.tinypic.com/2rdb4sh.jpg

If Hamas has killed civillians by car bombs and such, I'm not going to justify that, Although it might have been the only thing they could do other than watching their own kids being killed and their homes ruined.

A president's threat is much more serious than that of a quack fortune-teller. A president has control of its armed forces while the quack has none.

In Iran the control of the armed forces is in the hand of the supreme leader; Who is now Ayatollah Khamenei; and not the president.

Actually, it is my opinion that the us and her allies are hypocritical about nuclear weapons when they have the bulk of it ostensibly dangling in their pockets.

My stand in this issue is that NO COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

Me too!
At last we agree on something!

I have neither time nor inclination dignifying conspiracy theories. I only have opinions based on facts and logic.

It might not be bad if you sometimes checked your resources where you get your facts. I mean in a world that you find out it's physical laws are biased and based upon some philosophy, you can't expect much fom politics which can somehow be called Science of Lies!

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: to numinus

So is violence against either non-muslims or previous muslims ever justified because they are non-muslims or previous muslims?

Is violence against them ever more justifiable than it would be against other muslims because they are non-muslims or previous muslims? Is there a situation where, all other things being the same, violence against the non-muslims or the previous muslims would be ok but it would not be ok in the same situation against muslims?

When it comes to being violent is there a different standard applied to muslims versus non-muslims or previous muslims?

And just what does justify violence according to muslim laws?

I didn't actually understand where you get the "so" at the beginning. But I try to answer the question; although this subject of Islam & violence has become a difficult matter due to what has happenned recently in the world.
Violence as what the word really suggests is never justified in Islam. But you have the right to defend yourself by the same means you are attacked with. So if you are slapped in the face you can slap back although it's better not to, especially if the one slapped you is a muslim or has done it on a personal enmity; But if the one who slapped you in the face is not a muslim and his act has meant as an insult to your religion it might get compulsory to slap back as defending the dignity of Islam; and that is where no other response like talking,etc works.
So Nothing justifies starting a fight without no reason. It should be in defence upon your life, family, home, country, religion, dignity or the kind.
Only the prophet had the right to command on a fight as a beginner and that was against the pagans who refused Islam as the new government. Also He sent messengers to other countries to invite them to islam and if they didn't accept He sent troops to fight with their army. After taking control they started inviting the people of that country to believe in the true God and his prophet. (Remember then it was quite normal throughout the world, fighting for border expansions.) There are many rules in islam that are only appliable in an islamic government, actually islam is not an individual religion, so trying to get control over the government was a step towards the religion's teachings to be carried out correctly and completely.
Now this kind of fighting is forbidden unless with the word of the twelveth Imam, when he shows up, along with Jesus (as the shiites believe).
I'm sorry I didn't have time to write sooner or more, but you might as well look at this site. some of it's links can help:
(for example look at the title "Jesus, Violence and Islam" in the "Tolerance" links. It also relates somehow to this trinity question):

http://www.islamonline.net/english/In_Depth/Violence/index.shtml

 

[numinus]

I don't like contiuing like this, because I think we're misleading the conversation from what it was about. So I'll try to summarize a bit!


My history teacher might have had different views from yours. It's just the same as I denying the holy trinity which many people have taken for granted.

Whoever your history teacher is irrelevant to the concept of sovereignty. Sovereignty is indispensable within a COMMUNITY OF NATIONS. Your government is accepted in the community of nations simply because it is representative of your people.

If an iranian commits a crime against another sovereign nation, then your government has the RESPONSIBILITY to punish this individual according to your laws.

If your government neither has the will nor the capacity to punish this individual, such a situation is what is called a FAILED STATE. A sovereign state cannot negotiate with a failed state simply because it has no power to deliver its commitment to other nations. And when this happens, it is within the right of any aggrieved nation to go get the culprit themselves.

I'm not going to argue on that. At least not here. All I wanted to say was that the jews too, some times justify their violence by religious means.

Again, sovereignty. We couldn't care less what a rabbi in israel thinks of its war with syria or hamas. What we are interested in is the intended aims of israel's LEGITIMATE government.

And the aim is simple -- stop hamas from firing rockets into israel. If the palestinian authority or the palestinian people themselves cannot stop hamas, then israel has no choice but to stop hamas themselves.

Let's not look at it so much politically and based upon your believed principles of politics; I know they're unavoidable, but just for a while.
I believe any act which is premised upon the annihiliation of injustice and cruelty is justifiable. If the committer won't stop then it will be his/her annihiliation that I justify. This is the main theory. what comes out from the midst of all the political conditions has to be figured out.
You believe in sovereignty, not justice; actually your theory of justice is based upon sovereignty; mine on humanity, so I think we will never meet on this!

History has already stated its verdict.

The state of the palestinian arabs is so because of their OWN doing. They are in this situation because they LOST the war with israel they themselves started in 1948.

They refused citizenship in israel when it was offered because they thought that the jews would simply die just like in the holocaust.

Like a petulant child, they refuse to build a country on the soil they are in right now. They rather fight behind women and children for a land THEY CANNOT HAVE.

Maybe That's the reason why the christians believe Jesus to be God. So they can feel closer to God. We can argue here that does a man like Jesus have to be God in order for us to get in touch with God. Can't there be humans closer to God with a higher understanding of him and with special attention of God to them who can tell us about him the way we can understand? This is actully what we believe the prophets are doing(And the twelve imams for the shiite).
After all I think a humane God can't be the creator of the human and the world he is stuck up in understanding it!

A god that is 'outside' the world -- one that is absolutely transcendent -- has NO fundamental difference from the god of the philosophers. God's self-revelation is bereft of the DIMENSION OF LOVE -- or at least, he left it for your immam to expound.

I am sensitive about the condition of all kids and women and all that are killed without no reason.

Make no mistake. There is a reason why they are dead. They are dead because people like hamas do not have the strength of their own convictions (or more precisely, their rhetoric).

But I am still more sensitive about the existence of humanity. If nasrollah has let women and kids to die or suffer phisically, which has never made them his enemy, israel is killing this "humane sensitiveness" for each other from the very root by ruining the innocent souls of the kids. So I even feel sorry for those jewish kids that are write messages for palestinian kids on rockets!

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ymbz4l.jpg

http://mahdizebardast1386.googlepages.com/untitled.JPG

http://i43.tinypic.com/2rdb4sh.jpg

If Hamas has killed civillians by car bombs and such, I'm not going to justify that, Although it might have been the only thing they could do other than watching their own kids being killed and their homes ruined.

A man who wish to fight another man is expected to confront his adversary, not hide under the skirt of women and children.

I'm sorry to say that where I come from, these arab-palestinian 'fighters' do not get much sympathy because their actions are those of COWARDS. Our heroes died facing our european and american oppressors. Your heroes would probably die of old age hiding under a rock.

In Iran the control of the armed forces is in the hand of the supreme leader; Who is now Ayatollah Khamenei; and not the president.

So what's ahmedinejad's use? Is he there for our amusement?

Me too!
At last we agree on something!

Good for you.

It might not be bad if you sometimes checked your resources where you get your facts. I mean in a world that you find out it's physical laws are biased and based upon some philosophy, you can't expect much fom politics which can somehow be called Science of Lies!

There is an ocean of difference between politics and politicking.

 

[zakiyeh]

to numinus

1.Hamas can not be separated from the palestinian people. their convictions are of the word of people who are tired of loosing their lands bit by bit and living under the nose of israeli tanks moving around their streets. While the zionist army can't stop the rockets, the palestinean kids can, if they want... but they have chosen to resist. They're my real heroes.

2. If the palestinians have lost their land in war they can get it back fighting. Israel has become the sovereign one by the aids and weapons of Britain and USA; so the palestinians should be given the same weapons;then let them fight to choose who will be the sovereign.

3. The rockets are only an excuse. their target is breaking the resistance by creating horror, killing kids and ruining everything. You heard about that house bombed with all the women and kids shoved in by being told it's a safe place?

 

[numinus]

Re: to numinus

1.Hamas can not be separated from the palestinian people. their convictions are of the word of people who are tired of loosing their lands bit by bit and living under the nose of israeli tanks moving around their streets. While the zionist army can't stop the rockets, the palestinean kids can, if they want... but they have chosen to resist. They're my real heroes.

This is nonsense. I doubt that the pre-adolescent victims in gaza know why they are made to suffer. They suffer for the sins of their elders.

Personally, I'd rather suffer for the sake of my children. It seems that goat-herder priorities doesn't work that way.

2. If the palestinians have lost their land in war they can get it back fighting. Israel has become the sovereign one by the aids and weapons of Britain and USA; so the palestinians should be given the same weapons;then let them fight to choose who will be the sovereign.

If they must fight, then they should climb from under the rock they are hiding in and fight.

The jewish army enters gaza by its northern border. They should pick a fight from there, not under the skirts of their women. Or were they planning to get to heaven before being martyred?

Duh?

3. The rockets are only an excuse. their target is breaking the resistance by creating horror, killing kids and ruining everything. You heard about that house bombed with all the women and kids shoved in by being told it's a safe place?

The rockets are symptoms of the systematic malaise afflicting the palestinian people. They are cowards who want the lands of the jews, who are afraid to fight for it and would rather have the international community give it to them.

And that particular propaganda wouldn't work on rational individuals. There is no point in using expensive smartbombs to kill a handfull of women and children. Personally, I wouldn't dream of burning hard-earned money on targets with absolutely NO STRATEGIC OR TACTICAL VALUE, whatsoever.

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: to numinus

This is nonsense. I doubt that the pre-adolescent victims in gaza know why they are made to suffer. They suffer for the sins of their elders.

Personally, I'd rather suffer for the sake of my children. It seems that goat-herder priorities doesn't work that way.



If they must fight, then they should climb from under the rock they are hiding in and fight.

The jewish army enters gaza by its northern border. They should pick a fight from there, not under the skirts of their women. Or were they planning to get to heaven before being martyred?

Duh?



The rockets are symptoms of the systematic malaise afflicting the palestinian people. They are cowards who want the lands of the jews, who are afraid to fight for it and would rather have the international community give it to them.

And that particular propaganda wouldn't work on rational individuals. There is no point in using expensive smartbombs to kill a handfull of women and children. Personally, I wouldn't dream of burning hard-earned money on targets with absolutely NO STRATEGIC OR TACTICAL VALUE, whatsoever.

Better continue in " Final Gaza toll: 960 civilians dead" thread.

 

[PLC1]

Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord

The words of Jesus quoting what I believe is a passage from the book of Leviticus.

Not only do I accept this passage implicitly, I also believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three aspects of the one God.

Some may see this as illogical. I accept it as a mystery.

Here is why it is a mystery.

The Lord our God is one God, but we believe in the father, the son, and the holy ghost.

How can Christianity be monotheistic, yet believe in three beings?

There is a fundamental conflict, so it has to be resolved in one way or another.

This conflict doesn't affect Islam, as Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet of god, not a god himself. It doesn't affect Judaism, as Judaism doesn't accept Christ as a god. That leaves the Christians.

The Christians have been struggling over this matter for centuries. I have yet to hear anyone explain just how a church that claims monotheism can still believe in three beings.

Mormons believe that the three are one in the same sense that a family is one entity, yet composed of more than one person. That, at least, is something that most people can understand.

Christian fundamentalists, at least the ones I've talked to about the matter, reject the Mormon belief in favor of something that I doubt anyone understands.

So, Christians are left with a mystery: How can it be a monotheistic church, and yet believe in three beings, one of whom is the father of another?

Since no one has understood this concept in the past two thousand years, I doubt we can explain it on an internet forum.

 

[numinus]

Re: to numinus

Better continue in " Final Gaza toll: 960 civilians dead" thread.

This is nonsense.

Does hamas have a regular army in a legal sense? Hamas has a militia -- a group of civilians that double as soldiers when it is convenient. And when they instantly become soldiers when they pick up their weapons, they also instantly become civilians when they drop them.

But this point is moot. There wouldn't be civilian casualties if these cowards didn't fight under their women's skirts.