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The insurmountable problem for christianity

Discussion in 'Culture & Religion' started by Dawkinsrocks, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    Free will is clearly central to christianity as god's get-out-of-jail card for all the evil that is done.

    But god made 'free will' knowing exactly how it would be used.

    And that is the killer blow to christianity.

    If he knew how it would be used then it is not free will because the way it would be used had to be pre-determined for god to know in advance of its use, how it would be used.

    So the idea of free will as created by the christian representation of god is logically impossible.

    So if god exists he is responsible for all the evil that happens and he made lots of people who will burn in hell just for following the program he set for them.

    What a monster.

    But don't be too downhearted christians.

    He doesn't actually exist.
     
  2. foggedinn

    foggedinn New Member

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    Dawk, you are so brilliant. There probably hasn't been but two or three billion people that have figured that out before you.

    Of course, for God, the impossible is merely routine.
     
  3. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

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    The problem with your logic is the logic. You are dealing with a faith-based system in which logic is scorned. Religions have been making a virtue out of ignorance for a really long time. You gotta have faith, baby!
     
  4. Dawkinsrocks

    Dawkinsrocks Well-Known Member

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    Indeed

    Fogged in, first of all can I congratulate you on your choice of name.

    Do platitudes like 'for god the impossible is routine' really help you?

    I only ask because I was a christian once and then I woke up one day and started asking some real questions of christianity and it came up so far short of the mark that I realised that it is nonesense.

    And like many on this board, the christians I put many of my questions to, who claimed to be full of love, got really mad at me which made me think that they are both not full of love and that they are full of something else.

    And so I cast off my religious beliefs and have not looked back.

    Oh happy day.
    When reason washed
    my gullibility away.

    But I am well aware that many christians cannot give up their beliefs no matter how ridiculous they are shown to be. And that is not because of anything good.

    It is very sad.
     
  5. SusanConstant

    SusanConstant New Member

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    DR, there is no such thing as free will, as free is what aniamls do and we are not animals. will and liberty is what all people are born into and is of god aka the universe. Will is moral authority or birth and liberty is legal power or physical strength. We al make choicesl a choice among sone just choices is liberty. We all emotionally reason the consequences of thise choices which is will.

    With god? it is all choice as god forces nothing upon us - nothing. we can choose 'bad' or choose 'good'. People are not good or bad; they are eppople. Their choices may have good and bad conqsequences.

    By making choises and then owning the consequences of those choices we coem to defeat ego for conquer fear thus full embrace and know unconditional love.

    God? You are to be loving and not ever motivated to do anthing out of fear!

    The best, most just reason in the wirld? because you can and becasue you want not becasue you are afraid.

    Christ taught that - love - not fear.

    Once you actually live out unconditional love you are an equal creator with or to God or this universe. You are a part of it not apart from it.

    BTW: I'm not Christian but of all relgions. Man corrupted the idea of will and liberty thus made it "willpower" and "freewill". That's patriarchy not Christ himself for ya!
     
  6. Lagboltz

    Lagboltz Well-Known Member

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    I have absolute proof that free will doesn't exist. If you have free will you will pass this test:

    DO NOT THINK OF THE WORD BOOGER FOR THE NEXT 15 SECONDS.​
     
  7. foggedinn

    foggedinn New Member

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    I can certainly understand how people can use reason and logic to deny God's existance.

    I've been personnal witness to the impossible. That option simply isn't available to me.
     
  8. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

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    Recently, astronomers worked to determine what the universe with all its various galaxies and stars would look like from a distant viewpoint. So they programmed the positions into the computer, picked the desired vantage point and... voila':

    http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/08/14/science/20060815_SCILL_GRAPHIC.html

    Now... think what you want, but there's something a bit sobering about it!
     
  9. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    God created us and gave us free will, knowing that many of us would misuse it, and thus learn from our mistakes. There is no logical contradiction to that, nor is there any proof that the Christian god, or any other god, doesn't exist. Give it up, Dawkins, you simply can't disprove the existence of god any more than anyone else can prove such existence.

    Didn't you ban yourself in another thread?
     
  10. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

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    What are the blue lines in the universe picture?
     
  11. Mare Tranquillity

    Mare Tranquillity Active Member

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  12. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

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    My guess would be that they're probably just the first shift from absolute blackness towards light due to a much lower density of stars and systems.
     
  13. Lagboltz

    Lagboltz Well-Known Member

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    Facinating. Also the mandelbrot set has a similar structure, but from an unrelated area.
    http://people.physics.tamu.edu/rmurawski/fract1_rot.jpg
    Our universe is the brain of God?
    Reminds me of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" where the earth was a huge computer constructed to find out what question "42" answered.
     
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