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The Khilafah, is it a choice or required

Discussion in 'Culture & Religion' started by jb_1430, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. jb_1430

    jb_1430 New Member

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    "invitation and Jihad" Convert or DIE! Pretty much incompatible with individuality, liberty, freedom, democracy and everything we value in the US.
     
  2. 9sublime

    9sublime Active Member

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    I think this is a prime example of your rather one sided view of the Muslim word. I have Muslim friends who don't ever try to convert me, and have no desire to convert me, and embrace liberty, freedom and democracy.
     
  3. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    Nothing in any of the Abrahamic faiths are compatable with individuallity, liberty, freedom, or democracy.
     
  4. jb_1430

    jb_1430 New Member

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    Weeell, had I offered this as something representative of all Muslims, as opposed to something representative of Hizb ut Tahrir, you might of had a point. I didnt, you dont.
    Here is something representative from the University of Michigan.


    [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
    http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=1320
     
  5. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    ...and more out-of-context quotes.
     
  6. jb_1430

    jb_1430 New Member

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    I would argue Christianity spawned liberty, freedom and democracy. Hijacked by the Holy roman empire but again flourished in the Protestant reformation and put into practice in the US.
     
  7. jb_1430

    jb_1430 New Member

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    All the context you could ever want is at the links I provided.
     
  8. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    This was a command given during a war. It is completely reasonable that during a war one would treat the enemy that way.

    Find a verse that indicates this is how it should be for modern times.
     
  9. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Well-Known Member

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    This is just wrong.
     
  10. jb_1430

    jb_1430 New Member

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    Nothing in the verse indicates that it wouldnt apply today. And wars of conquest defined most of muhammad's writing career.

    [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
     
  11. 9sublime

    9sublime Active Member

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    Once again though it depends on how much of their religious texts they choose to follow and how they choose to integrate it into their way of life.
     
  12. jb_1430

    jb_1430 New Member

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    It is the Islamic F U N D A M E N T A L I S T who are currently of concern. The ones who adhere to the literal meaning of ALL the written doctrine of the Koran and Haddiths. You seem to point to the fact that all Muslims dont think alike, in response to most anything I have to say about Islam, as if it had any bearing on what I have said.

     
  13. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    Not really. Think about it. Submission to authority divine and temperal. Submission to the word and justice of God. Authority and law do not come from man himself or from human societies. There is nothing to encourage and individual to think for himself - indeed, the opposite. Everything works towards submission to a non-elected authority. We are sheep with a shepherd.
     
  14. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    You're entitled to your opinion of course, but there is nothing in the Bible that in any way speaks of democracy.
     
  15. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

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    ...

    Muslims are the new Jews.
    The arguments are pretty much the same when people attack the religion instead of the terror ideology we are really trying to fight.
    People pull up historical and scriptural evidence to show the inevitability of evil within the religion and apply them to people living today, regardless of those people's true motivations and feelings.

    One does not have to look hard in the OT to find that the Jews were only obligated to help themselves and had double standards even as far as genocide. For hundreds of years, conspiracy theorists and antisemites have used this info as a way to encourage the purging of Jews from populations and the misguided populist movements to divide countrymen.

    Now the same BS is being used to villainize Muslims.

    Our fight is with the radicals and tribals that want to destroy and control... We need the sane Muslims on our side. We need to stop lumping them altogether using the same crap people have used to attack the Jews for generations.
     
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