The monstrous Christian / Islamic God

[Dr.Who]

In that case, we don't have enough information to make any decisions about anything. I can accept that.

You live by faith decisions every moment of every day. If you did not have faith that the sun would rise tomorrow you would live every moment in abject fear.

You have free will to see the imprint of God on nature, and to hear his calling to you, and to know the law of God that is written in your heart. And none of that requires a Bible or a Christian. Nor is any of that negatively effected by anything that is written nor said by any man. It's all up to you. You said you had a soul didn't you? Or was that Hutchins? Do you have a soul and what does it tell you?

It is your free will to have faith in those or not. There will not likely be proof. But then again is there really anything that there is proof for?

 

[samsara15]

No, I don't think I have a soul. I'm a monist. That must have been Hutchins.

You are correct to say that there is no proof for anything. We make our decisions to believe or not based on what we experience and our emotions.

 

[Dr.Who]

No, I don't think I have a soul. I'm a monist. That must have been Hutchins.

You are correct to say that there is no proof for anything. We make our decisions to believe or not based on what we experience and our emotions.

Then you won't mind of I quote that every time you make an anti-theist statement that is more emotional than rational?

Perhaps it would be better to evaluate the situation from step one without any bias and see if you don't accept some of the theist ideas. Are you open minded enough to do that?

 

[numinus]

You are correct to say that there is no proof for anything. We make our decisions to believe or not based on what we experience and our emotions.

While this is a good advice to consider when conversing with boneheads, it really is useless when dealing with the immutable truths of logic and mathematics.

 

[zakiyeh]

Human beings are finite creatures. In any moral system, we do some good and some evil. None of us can do infinite evil, in any moral system, in our brief lives. We simply don't have enough time to do so.
So how can it be justified to conceive of a Hell in which human beings suffer eternal damnation for their finite sins? What can these poor, finite creatures do, in their short lives, to justify such an infintely cruel punishment?

The infinity of evil is not counted on the time you take to do it. It is based on the effect it has on your soul/heart. Not all sins have infinite punishment. Only when your heart denies the existence of God, and when you have committed so many sins as to where there is no one clear spot left on the face of your mirror soul which once had the image of God reflected on it... it is then that you are said to be infinite in hell... that is you have passed the irreversible point.

Men, after all, wrote both the Bible and the Koran.

How come you're so sure?

A God who would punish mankind so severely for such finite offenses would be a monster, in every sense of the word. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that such an interpretation of God is false, that God is much kinder than that?

We have verses in Quran that if you brought back the infinite residents of hell a thousand times to earth and gave them new lives and new opportunities to be good, they again would go the wrong way... that's because they have spoiled their souls... so they will never love their kind and merciful God... God is always kind and to every one, but when you have closed all the openings, how do you expect to receive the light and warmths of his kindness... God is eager to reflect the light of his mercy to all men. It is us that abandon that to ourselves by denying. It is this denying that has infinite punishment... the moment you believe, you open way for mercy!

 

[Dr.Who]

Those of us who are not Christians hear a lot more about the punishment we will receive for not being believers than we do about the rewards that we would receive if we become believers. I have known some Christians who rejected the idea of eternal damnation, a POV which provides we non-believers a much more humane view of Christianity.

Whatever the case may be, real belief cannot be forced, and must be reached via persuasion. Neither the promise of rewards nor the threats of punishment in themselves can persuade.

You probably hear 10 to 1 that "Jesus Loves You" over "You are going to hell."

You just tune that part out.

 

[Dr.Who]

I work within my limited understanding, Dr Who. I could indeed be wrong. Could you also be wrong?

I could be wrong. I often am wrong.

But I don't go around and say "Since I don't see any justification for X, X must be wrong." That is just not logical.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

You probably hear 10 to 1 that "Jesus Loves You" over "You are going to hell."

You just tune that part out.

maybe you just don't hear the insults to non Christian's, because you tune them out...or as in some cases I have had, they did not even realize what they just said was insulting to non Christians...

 

[invest07]

Allah ain't God

Sammy,
I feel your rage. One of the things most of us come to realize, at some point in life, is that strong emotions cloud reasoning.

Your understanding of the Christian/Jewish God is shallow and emotional and reflects very little actual knowledge on your part.

First of all, Allah ain't God. Allah is the moon God of Mohammed's tribe. Regardless of what Muslims tell you, Allah is not the same personality as the Christian/Jewish God. As a matter of fact, Allah is mythology. Over the years, Islamic mullahs began to equate Mohammed's moon god with the Christian/Jewish God. This gave them a measure of respectability because they could point to the Bible as an ancient source for their beliefs. Today, everyone one that bows to Mecca has forgotten or never been told the true nature of Allah, and that nature is mythology.

Don't equate what the Muslims believe with what Christians and Jews know to be true.

 

[Dr.Who]

maybe you just don't hear the insults to non Christian's, because you tune them out...or as in some cases I have had, they did not even realize what they just said was insulting to non Christians...

I was an atheist until my mid twenties. I have been a Christian for a long time now too.

I am quite aware how being in a minority sensitizes one.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I was an atheist until my mid twenties. I have been a Christian for a long time now too.

I am quite aware how being in a minority sensitizes one.

I don't call it being sensitive when your told your going to burn in hell...I don't really care, because I don't believe in hell so its not a big threat to me...but does make me question why they acted like they wanted to be my friend, yet said stuff like that ( while not aimed at me maybe) as if they did not know they are saying that's how low of a view they had of me...others just say they don't agree and hope I find Jesus or what have you and are done, and we can be cool...I don't try to tell them there god is fake and they are a idiot for believing it.

 

[Dr.Who]

I don't call it being sensitive when your told your going to burn in hell...I don't really care, because I don't believe in hell so its not a big threat to me...but does make me question why they acted like they wanted to be my friend, yet said stuff like that ( while not aimed at me maybe) as if they did not know they are saying that's how low of a view they had of me...others just say they don't agree and hope I find Jesus or what have you and are done, and we can be cool...I don't try to tell them there god is fake and they are a idiot for believing it.

I was about to say what you just said: if one does not believe in hell then there is no harm done.

When a Christian tells you that you are going to hell they (hopefully) do not mean it in the way that it is often used which means "I want you to go to hell." but more in the way your doctor means it when he says "you have a growth on your liver."

One difference that I can see is that the doctor has your permission to be involved in your business. I think people should either address discussions of hell to generic discussions about hell and all unbelievers or if talking to a specific person then to have some sort of permission. Getting back to the doctor analogy if a doctor went on TV talking about the signs of liver growths he would certainly be heard by someone who had a sign of liver growths but he would not be imposing himself into their life. And he would also be acting kindly if his patient who asked for help was informed about liver growths. What the doctor should not do is walk up to a stranger on the subway and tell them that he can see that they have a liver growth. Suppose he sat next to that person and struck up a conversation. Suppose he steered that conversation toward a discussion of liver growths? Eventually he might get permission to talk about it. From what you have described your "friends" have taken that approach. You have provided the proof that they are attempting to be sensitive to your right to be left alone.

(As a side note I would point out that anyone on a political forum who engages in a religious discussion has given permission to hear any point of view.)

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: Allah ain't God

Sammy,
First of all, Allah ain't God. Allah is the moon God of Mohammed's tribe. Regardless of what Muslims tell you, Allah is not the same personality as the Christian/Jewish God. As a matter of fact, Allah is mythology. Over the years, Islamic mullahs began to equate Mohammed's moon god with the Christian/Jewish God. This gave them a measure of respectability because they could point to the Bible as an ancient source for their beliefs. Today, everyone one that bows to Mecca has forgotten or never been told the true nature of Allah, and that nature is mythology.

Don't equate what the Muslims believe with what Christians and Jews know to be true.

You write so sure of yourself!
I read somewhere that "Al-Elah" was the name of the moon God; and I'm still not sure of that. But I know that "Elah" in arabic means any kind of God. "Al" which comes before any names is the same as "The" in English. Well the moon God was the father and the main God worshipped and so it was called "Al-Elah" which means "The God" and by that they meant this moon God which they belived had three daughters that their idols had been put inside "ka'ba". So the people of Quraish (The tribe of Muhammad) and other tribes had become to worship Idols again (like at the time of Abraham) until prophet Muhammad(pbuh) invited them to islam and to worship The true one God :Allah which means "The God". The unity of God is a key belief in islam so muslims believe that there is only one true God, So his name had to be free of any special adjectives or anything... it had to be just "The God". So it became Allah. But this God is completely different from that moon God!

The story of Ka'ba goes back to Abraham. Do you think Abraham is a myth? because muslims now believe Allah is abraham's God who was a monotheic and broke the idols that were worshipped in place of the true God. Abraham is called Khalil-Ullah by muslims, That means: The friend of Allah.
Prophet Muhammad himself worshipped the God of Abraham (his ancestor), who was the God of Moses and Jesus. We call the religions of these three prophets the monotheistic religions, or "Abrahamic religions". Abraham and his son Ismaeal built the Ka'ba at mecca, and there Abraham asked God that to accept them as "muslims" and asked that there be muslims from their generation, and God accepted that. (The literal meaning of Muslim is a person who "submits" to the will of God).This story is written in quran. Muslims reference for believing this God to be the same as jews' and christians' is the Quran, not the word of islamic mullahs!

 

[invest07]

zakiyeh

At last. A Muslim who at least sounds like he knows what he (or she) is talking about.

I am curious about how Muslims interpret Obadiah 1:21. I have read every translation I know and they all say the same thing to me: That the house of Esau is doomed.

What say you?

 

[zakiyeh]

And another intersting subject that relates more to the subject of the thread:
When prophet Muhammad was asked by his tribe about his God, He said my God is Ar-Rahman"; meaning "most mercifull" (so if Muslims God happens to be different then he is the kind one!)
There are 99 names of God enumerated in islam, each representing certain attributes or descriptions of God; in which God is seen as being the source and maximum extent of each name's meaning. The names Ar-Rahman and Ar-Raheem are the most frequently mentioned in the Qur'an, both meaning the "Most Merciful", but with different emphasis' of meaning, either of which are also often translated as the "Most Compassionate" or the "Most Beneficent".

The other 99 names do indeed include names like al-jabbar: The compeller or al-ghahhar: The subduer, which represent the God's power and his mightiness and his revengefulness. But they're not chosen as the main names or being repeated as so many times...
Just another evidence that God is more kind than harsh!