The Real terrorist in the 2008 Presidential Contest

"imperial mercenaries"?? Do expect anyone to take you seriously when you utter such giggly stuff? :D

As just about everyone knows, Stone is renowned for historical distortion - when "Platoon" came out, lots of vets were stunned at it's bald-faced distortion and defamation of them.

The US is an empire as any impartial analysis of the expansion from the 1776 to the present day will demonstrate.

As for the US forces being in Vietnam being mercenaries, your own position is that the bulk of the troops were regulars or volunteers.

That makes them mercenaries, i.e. people who get paid to fight.

Cannot have it both ways

...Cannot eat books...

Yes I am beginning to understand your contempt for people to educate themselves ..ahem..beyond their station.

It is indeed a shame that the education you have from which you benefitted from does not appear to be worthy enough for others to achieve.

By the way, how is your pension plan these days ?
 
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Are you trying to compare bombing in an actual war to what Ayers did in some roundabout attempt to make it sound less bad.

Apples to oranges.

While as an American and knowing that The United States has usually done extremely big and honorable things with it's military power over it's many years I of course don't hold with Stalin's position that America is failed and evil.

However there are documented cases where America has made military mistakes... as I'm sure most countries have at one time or another in their history the Soviets certainly being no exception.

All that said Stalin does highlight the way much of the rest of the world often views our actions. We have used our CIA and "military advisers" to instigate conflicts. We have supported the overthrow of democratically elected officials. And we have unfortunately went the Nation Building route from time to time and we have killed civilians during conflicts. (My wife's years in US Army Military Intelligence along with friends of hers retired military & NSA have given me some insight on things that I would have never thought started or happened they way they actually did.)

I think it's important to try to look at history from a nonpartisan lens. It's far too easy to just say my side is ALWAYS right. We've made mistakes. I personally am a believer in the General Colin Powell doctrine... Use war only as a LAST resort, if you commit use overwhelming force from the beginning and have an almost immediate exit strategy at the completion of said mission.

But all that aside I agree that the Vietnam to Ayers comparison is somewhat apples to oranges. That was a government act compared to an individuals act.

But a very good comparison of just knowing someone (in this example embracing someone of a serious criminal background) would be John McCain's embrace of G. Gordon Liddy. The main difference between Ayers & Liddy being Ayers was never convicted of even one single crime although he did help found a group that most certainly did. The other difference is Ayers completely turned his life around and became a very well liked & widely respected Professor of Education... while Liddy will be nothing more than a dangerous thug until the day he dies.

John McCain's "Bill Ayers".... G. GORDON LIDDY
by TheCameraObscura
October 5, 2008

Sarah Palin chides Barack Obama for supposedly "palling around with terrorists," the Governor of Alaska may want to take a look at John McCain's "palling around" with convicted criminal G. Gordon Liddy.

G. Gordon Liddy served four and a half years in prison in connection with his conviction for his role in the Watergate break-in and the break-in at the office of the psychiatrist of Daniel Ellsberg, the military analyst who leaked the Pentagon Papers.

Liddy has acknowledged preparing to kill someone during the Ellsberg break-in "if necessary"; plotting to murder journalist Jack Anderson; plotting with a "gangland figure" to murder Howard Hunt to stop him from cooperating with investigators; plotting to firebomb the Brookings Institution; and plotting to kidnap "leftist guerillas" at the 1972 Republican National Convention -- a plan he outlined to the Nixon administration using terminology borrowed from the Nazis. (The murder, firebombing, and kidnapping plots were never carried out; the break-ins were.)

During the 1990s, Liddy reportedly instructed his radio audience on multiple occasions on how to shoot Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agents and also reportedly said he had named his shooting targets after Bill and Hillary Clinton.

Liddy has donated $5,000 to McCain's campaigns since 1998, including $1,000 in February 2008. In addition, McCain has appeared on Liddy's radio show during the presidential campaign, including as recently as May.

John McCain's appearance on The G. Gordon Liddy Show 11/8/07 includes a discussion between Liddy and McCain, whom Liddy described as an "old friend." During the segment, McCain praised Liddy's "adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great," said he was "proud" of Liddy, and said that "it's always a pleasure for me to come on your program."

Additionally, in 1998, Liddy reportedly held a fundraiser at his home for McCain. Liddy was reportedly scheduled to speak at another fundraiser for McCain in 2000. The Charlotte Observer reported on January 23, 2000, that McCain's campaign vouched for Liddy's "character":
 
It is indeed a shame that the education you have from which you benefitted from does not appear to be worthy enough for others to achieve.

Am I keeping anyone from getting an education? Am I supposed to share the profits of my hard work with those who don't want to do the same? Do YOU really want to do that? Everyone CAN rise in America. Is it harder for some? Yes. Is it impossible? No. Does that make capitalism evil, because someone has to work harder?

By the way, how is your pension plan these days ?
It'll last me the rest of my life, thanks for asking, and my son will still inherit a good amount. I made my pension plan. Capitalism also allows one to be self employed, make the rules, and save. Did I take a hit in the stock market? yes. Do I have enough to live well until it recovers? yes. One doesn't get wealthy giving your money away, trusting any government, or putting it all in one basket.

I don't pretend that our government isn't corrupt. It is. The people in Congress are. Ceo's of big corporations are too apparently. They represent the worst of capitalism. I, someone who worked, and I worked hard too, represent the everyday opportunities of capitalism. I never stepped on anyone to get what I have. I'm not the only one.

I don't begrudge anyone anywhere achieving what I have in life. I wish it for everyone. Do I feel an obligation to make it happen for them? No. I feel no responsibility to anyone who won't do what I did. In your own words, "can't have it both ways". You don't get a piece of the pie if you won't help bake it.
 
"...The vast majority of those who served in the American military in Southeast Asia were conscripts who had no choice in the matter. Most didn’t want to be there and many came to hate the war and the army officialdom.

McCain, on the other hand, welcomed the opportunity to participate in the Vietnam War, to drop bombs and kill human beings who had done him and the US population no harm. He had no scruples about it.

When he was shot down in October 1967, McCain was taking part in Operation Rolling Thunder, an aerial bombardment campaign conducted against North Vietnam from March 1965 until November 1968. His specific target, which he failed to hit, was a power plant in the center of Hanoi.

On December 31, 1967, the US Defense Department reported that American planes had dumped 864,000 tons of bombs on North Vietnam during the operation, compared with 653,000 tons of bombs dropped in the entire course of the Korean War and 503,000 tons in the Pacific theater during World War II.

Estimates of civilian deaths caused by US bombing in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 52,000 to 182,000. The war eventually killed a total of more than 3 million Vietnamese and wounded another 600,000.

As a leading member of the Weatherman group, Ayers admits to having set off several small bombs, which blew up a police memorial and damaged public buildings. No one was killed or injured in those actions. Ayers was never charged with, let alone convicted, of a crime..."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/ayer-o17.shtml

You can't be serious. You obviously never serve your country nor do you know what it's like in a place like Iraq or Vietnam. Vietnam may not have been a popular war but McCain served a cause greater that his own for his country with honor, protecting our freedom. I think you need to serve over in Iraq or Afganistan before some **** falls out of your mouth that is dishonorable and unpatriotic. Ayers was a dispicable unrepentant TERRORIST that Nobama palled around with. He was part of a rogue group that hated America and preyed on innocent people. Big difference compared to an officer in the US Navy. You're a pinhead and should be ashamed of yourself. Butt this is typical for a Nobama supporter.


http://www.antiobama.net/

http://obamaism.blogspot.com/
 
No I am not trying to compare the two.

War is far, far worse.

Maybe you think that the imperial mercenaries performed honourably in Vietnam, but the scholarship is against you.

May I recommend a viewing of Oliver Stone's "Platoon" for an insider's account of what he experienced.

And, for the record, war IS terrorism, no matter how you spin it.

A terrorist is someone who cannot afford an airplane to deliver the bomb.

I am supposed to watch "Platoon" to be convinced of your point? Is this a joke?
 
However there are documented cases where America has made military mistakes... as I'm sure most countries have at one time or another in their history the Soviets certainly being no exception.

Well yes, any organization that large over the course of 200+ years will have some black marks on its resume.

All that said Stalin does highlight the way much of the rest of the world often views our actions. We have used our CIA and "military advisers" to instigate conflicts. We have supported the overthrow of democratically elected officials. And we have unfortunately went the Nation Building route from time to time and we have killed civilians during conflicts. (My wife's years in US Army Military Intelligence along with friends of hers retired military & NSA have given me some insight on things that I would have never thought started or happened they way they actually did.)

Well I do not know why they are "giving you insight" quite frankly, that is completely ridiculous. If you work in intel you should keep your mouth shut on actual operations. All of the rest you said is well documented yes, and in the context of the Cold War I find it perfectly legitimate in the interest of security.

I think it's important to try to look at history from a nonpartisan lens. It's far too easy to just say my side is ALWAYS right. We've made mistakes. I personally am a believer in the General Colin Powell doctrine... Use war only as a LAST resort, if you commit use overwhelming force from the beginning and have an almost immediate exit strategy at the completion of said mission.

Well, that is not the entire Powell Doctrine, but aside from that he ripped it off the Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger and the Weinberger doctrine for the most part in my opinion. The idea itself is fine, but you still have to adjust to situations on the ground. If your exit strategy is "we will be greeted as liberators" and it will run smoothly does not work, you have to change quickly, not pursue the same failed strategy.

That said, that is the fundamental argument when it comes to foreign relations much of the time, do we go in only when we must and quickly leave, or do we go in and set up a system that benefits our own interests. Makes for an interesting debate.

But all that aside I agree that the Vietnam to Ayers comparison is somewhat apples to oranges. That was a government act compared to an individuals act.

I agree.

But a very good comparison of just knowing someone (in this example embracing someone of a serious criminal background) would be John McCain's embrace of G. Gordon Liddy. The main difference between Ayers & Liddy being Ayers was never convicted of even one single crime although he did help found a group that most certainly did. The other difference is Ayers completely turned his life around and became a very well liked & widely respected Professor of Education... while Liddy will be nothing more than a dangerous thug until the day he dies.

A much more valid comparison, personally I find the Ayers connection overblown, so I will let someone who does not respond to this point.
 
Luckily, we are fortunate to live in an age when an activist is able to articulate his position without bogus "analysis" by the wicked capitalist media

Ayers states that he wishes he had done more to stop the war

"..Clarifying the Facts— a letter to the New York Times, 9-15-2001

September 15, 2001

To The Editors—

In July of this year Dinitia Smith asked my publisher if she might interview me for the New York Times on my forthcoming book, Fugitive Days. From the start she questioned me sharply about bombings, and each time I referred her to my memoir where I discussed the culture of violence we all live with in America, my growing anger in the 1960’s about the structures of racism and the escalating war, and the complex, sometimes extreme and despairing choices I made in those terrible times.

Smith’s angle is captured in the Times headline: “No regrets for a love of explosives” (September 11, 2001). She and I spoke a lot about regrets, about loss, about attempts to account for one’s life. I never said I had any love for explosives, and anyone who knows me found that headline sensationalistic nonsense. I said I had a thousand regrets, but no regrets for opposing the war with every ounce of my strength. I told her that in light of the indiscriminate murder of millions of Vietnamese, we showed remarkable restraint, and that while we tried to sound a piercing alarm in those years, in fact we didn’t do enough to stop the war.

Smith writes of me: “Even today, he ‘finds a certain eloquence to bombs, a poetry and a pattern from a safe distance,’ he writes.” This fragment seems to support her “love affair with bombs” thesis, but it is the opposite of what I wrote:

We’ll bomb them into the Stone Age, an unhinged American politician had intoned, echoing a gung-ho, shoot-from-the-hip general… each describing an American policy rarely spoken so plainly. Boom. Boom. Boom. Poor Viet Nam. Almost four times the destructive power Florida… How could we understand it? How could we take it in? Most important, what should we do about it? Bombs away. There is a certain eloquence to bombs, a poetry and a pattern from a safe distance. The rhythm of B-52s dropping bombs over Viet Nam, a deceptive calm at 40,000 feet as the doors ease open and millennial eggs are delivered on the green canopy below, the relentless thud of indiscriminate destruction and death without pause on the ground. Nothing subtle or syncopated. Not a happy rhythm. Three million Vietnamese lives were extinguished. Dig up Florida and throw it into the ocean. Annihilate Chicago or London or Bonn. Three million—each with a mother and a father, a distinct name, a mind and a body and a spirit, someone who knew him well or cared for her or counted on her for something or was annoyed or burdened or irritated by him; each knew something of joy or sadness or beauty or pain. Each was ripped out of this world, a little red dampness staining the earth, drying up, fading, and gone. Bodies torn apart, blown away, smudged out, lost forever.

I wrote about Vietnamese lives as a personal American responsibility, then, and the hypocrisy of claiming an American innocence as we constructed and stoked an intricate and hideous chamber of death in Asia. Clearly I wrote and spoke about the export of violence and the government’s love affair with bombs. Just as clearly Dinitia Smith was interested in her journalistic angle and not the truth. This is not a question of being misunderstood or “taken out of context,” but of deliberate distortion.

Some readers apparently responded to her piece, published on the same day as the vicious terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, by associating my book with them. This is absurd. My memoir is from start to finish a condemnation of terrorism, of the indiscriminate murder of human beings, whether driven by fanaticism or official policy. It begins literally in the shadow of Hiroshima and comes of age in the killing fields of Southeast Asia. My book criticizes the American obsession with a clean and distanced violence, and the culture of thoughtlessness and carelessness that results from it. We are now witnessing crimes against humanity in our own land on an unthinkable scale, and I fear that we might soon see innocent people in other parts of the world as well as in the U.S. dying and suffering in response.

All that we witnessed September 11—the awful carnage and pain, the heroism of ordinary people—may drive us mad with grief and anger, or it may open us to hope in new ways. Perhaps precisely because we have suffered we can embrace the suffering of others and gather the necessary wisdom to resist the impulse to lash out randomly. The lessons of the anti-war movements of the 1960s and 70s may be more urgent now than ever.

Bill Ayers Chicago, IL

http://billayers.wordpress.com/2008...cts-a-letter-to-the-new-york-times-9-15-2001/
 
May I recommend a viewing of Oliver Stone's "Platoon" for an insider's account of what he experienced.

"Spitoon"??? ROTFLMFAO!! That's the absolute WORST p.o.s. movie EVER made about Vietnam, and if he really expects people to believe that it was even "semi-autobiographical", then he spent his entire time there on DRUGS.
 
Anyone who supports the US foreign policy of the last 60 years, which is a cavalcade of meddling and terrorist actions, is a terrorist supporter.

I do not know what a dirtbag is, as it is not in common use in our country.

Can you please explain why you need to resort to personal attacks ?

Well, your username is apropos, you sure sound like a Commie! Everything else you contribute sounds like it's straight out of the Communist Manifesto too. Yup, good choice, so, when are you moving to Vladivostok?

Oh, and you can forget the "personal attack" crap. When almost every post of yours is a "personal attack" against Americans, you need to be prepared to get the same in return.
 
And was there any difference between what happened to conscripts and what happened to volunteers ?

<SNIP WORTHLESS TRIPE>

As usual, you present a bare minimum of factual information wrapped up in a veil of lies and bovine excrement.

The difference is that our draftees were actually TRAINED, as opposed to your Soviet "conscripts" that were sent into Afghanistan by the tens of thousands with barely two weeks INDOCTRINATION!

You're a complete waste.
 
The results of communism are..let me see..

Kerala, India : 90% literacy.
That is a notable achievement. However, Kerala also has the country's highest suicide rate. Alcoholism is the highest rate in India. The highest rate of heart disease in the country, and on the rise. Morbidity rate is 50-100% higher, depending on rural or city.

China - Most successful economy in the world. No foreign debt. Build on Marxist econimics.

The success of the Chinese economy has only come after the introduction of Capitalism, tainting their form of socialism. Grinding poverty, relentless servitude and unchecked pollution are just some aspects of their continuing dictatorial governance.

Russia - Destroyer of the Hitlerite filth. Comrade Stalin fought remorselessly to remove the wreckers and foriegn agents from the worker's state, but as soon as he died, the stagnation and corruption started.

How incredibly disingenuous. Your statements about Russia are so filled with error it would take much longer than I have to spend on this at this time.

The US and the UK - bastions of capitalism. Complete basket cases.

Again, so far off base you stretch all bounds of credibility. I live in the state of Michigan, where economically we have been in a one state recession for quite some time. And sure, the U.S. has it's share of problems, as does the Great Britain. In spite of that, we've countless people from other countries seeking to come here every day, from all over the world. There is nowhere in the world I'd rather live, even with our tarnished freedoms.

Ah, time confines me.

How do you know that I haven't been to Russia, or China or Kerala?

You don't.

You ASSUME.

Not said to me, but in response I'll simply say that wherever you've been and wherever you go, it will be tainted by your brainwashed perspective. In your intro, you state you are 57. So that means you were born in 1950-51.

Since that is the case, the 1950's you cite as the period you were so extensively exposed to and influenced by Marxism occurred when you were still a child. I would contend that you have, at best, very limited ability to be objective. The evidence is boundless that your belief is flawed, and damning to the mankind who are subjected to it.
 
The US is an empire as any impartial analysis of the expansion from the 1776 to the present day will demonstrate.

Nonsense. :D

As for the US forces being in Vietnam being mercenaries, your own position is that the bulk of the troops were regulars or volunteers.

That makes them mercenaries, i.e. people who get paid to fight.

Cannot have it both ways

You're confusing me with someone else. The vast majority of soldiers were draftees.

Yes I am beginning to understand your contempt for people to educate themselves ..ahem..beyond their station.

It is indeed a shame that the education you have from which you benefitted from does not appear to be worthy enough for others to achieve.

I have supported education over and over on this site - starting with the dismantling of the disastrous anachronistic government school system, and the replacement of it by superior competent cost-effective "private" schools.

By the way, how is your pension plan these days ?

Down somewhat - strictly my own fault for not paying enough attention.
 
You come from one of the premier countries in the world for historically treating its people badly. How can you even have the nerve to say anything about America. You know what the definition of a happy Russian is? One who is in America.

"By 2050, the Russian population will drop by between 1.3 percent and 4.4 percent because of AIDS, and the number of people economically active will drop correspondingly by between 1.4 percent and 5.4 percent, "Izvestiya" reported on 27 May, citing the Moscow Bureau of the International Organization for Labor. By 2010, around 8 million people -- more than 10 percent of the adult population of Russia -- will be HIV carriers, according to a report by the U.S.-Russia Against HIV-AIDS working group. According to the daily, the government has not acknowledged the seriousness of the impending crisis, because to do so would require spending vast sums of money."

http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_239062.php

Yea! Putinistas!

Putin is neither socialist nor communist.

The HIV epidemic has happened since socialism was destroyed.

What point, if any, are you trying to make ?
 
You're confusing me with someone else. The vast majority of soldiers were draftees.

You are indeed correct. My sincere fraternal apologies comrade.

Maybe the gentleman who raised this issue could start a new thread on the correct data.

Contrary to popular belief, Marxists are always ready and able to attack issues that need resolution.

As a corollary, we do not view propaganda as a bad.

Propaganda is the process of trying to convince someone of the validity of your opinion.

And as the capitalist media showed with the issue of WMD in Iraq, stunningly effective in the right situation..

So let us stop pretending that one side uses propaganda and the other doesn't.

It is just that the capitalist propaganda is such much better, appealing as it does to the greed implicit in the primitive brain rather than ideology, which is always a hard sell..
 
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That is a notable achievement. However, Kerala also has the country's highest suicide rate. Alcoholism is the highest rate in India. The highest rate of heart disease in the country, and on the rise. Morbidity rate is 50-100% higher, depending on rural or city.

The success of the Chinese economy has only come after the introduction of Capitalism, tainting their form of socialism. Grinding poverty, relentless servitude and unchecked pollution are just some aspects of their continuing dictatorial governance.

How incredibly disingenuous. Your statements about Russia are so filled with error it would take much longer than I have to spend on this at this time.



Again, so far off base you stretch all bounds of credibility. I live in the state of Michigan, where economically we have been in a one state recession for quite some time. And sure, the U.S. has it's share of problems, as does the Great Britain. In spite of that, we've countless people from other countries seeking to come here every day, from all over the world. There is nowhere in the world I'd rather live, even with our tarnished freedoms.

Ah, time confines me.



Not said to me, but in response I'll simply say that wherever you've been and wherever you go, it will be tainted by your brainwashed perspective. In your intro, you state you are 57. So that means you were born in 1950-51.

Since that is the case, the 1950's you cite as the period you were so extensively exposed to and influenced by Marxism occurred when you were still a child. I would contend that you have, at best, very limited ability to be objective. The evidence is boundless that your belief is flawed, and damning to the mankind who are subjected to it.

Interesting that you consider a child to be incapable of objectivity. This is not my understanding from Piaget; though you might of course entertain an alternative hypothesis which I would, of course, be most interested to learn about.

It is a miracle that I managed to obtain a degree in organic radiochemistry and be a highly paid Oracle consultant in the UK with a very limited ability to be objective, or even a limited ability, or any ability.

I would be very interested in the statistics about Kerala that you mention. Having spent some considerable time in that state studying karnatic music, and playing in a Kovalum Beach strip club, it comes as a bit surprise.

Comrade StalinShastri of Kerala
 
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