The Sleaziness Of Trump

[dogtowner]

Salvation is being delivered from the righteous judgment of God that will fall upon those who have sinned by breaking his law. In order to be saved from that judgment we must trust Christ. We must receive what he has done on the cross on our behalf as a substitute for us, who removes our sin (Heb. 9:26; 2 Pet. 2:24) and gives us righteousness (Phil. 3:9). This can only be done by faith because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6).

There are different groups that teach that salvation is attained by doing good works and trusting in Christ, such as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. But this cannot be so. Sure, we want people to do good works, but it is not the good works that contribute to salvation. Let's take a look at two sections of Scripture where Jesus teaches on this topic, Matt. 7:22-23 and Luke 18:9-14.

This one you quoted..Matt. 7:22-23, "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" 23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

You can see that on the day of judgment there will be people who believe in God and will appeal for their salvation based on their faith in him (they call him Lord) and their good deeds, i.e., prophesying, casting out demons, and performing miracles. Yet Jesus condemns them. Why? It is because they are appealing to their faith and works.

Luke 18:9:14, "And He also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, ‘God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.

In these verses Jesus talks about a Pharisee who believed in God, did good things, and did not do bad things. Yet, he was not saved. On the other hand, the tax gatherer (verse 13) did not appeal to works, but only asked for God's mercy. Jesus says that he was justified, not the Pharisee. That means he was legally righteous in God's eyes. Notice, Jesus taught justification by faith alone.

While it is possible to live without sin, it's hard. If you can accept Christ as your lord and savior (also hard as it requires humility, true humility) you will be saved.

 

[grumpy]

While it is possible to live without sin, it's hard. If you can accept Christ as your lord and savior (also hard as it requires humility, true humility) you will be saved.

YES SIR..

 

[dogtowner]

YES SIR..

There are some like the pharicess who enjoy pointing out those like the tax collecter and mocking them. But this is where that judge not lest you be judged comes in. God alone gets to do that.

 

[Old_Trapper70]

Salvation is being delivered from the righteous judgment of God that will fall upon those who have sinned by breaking his law. In order to be saved from that judgment we must trust Christ. We must receive what he has done on the cross on our behalf as a substitute for us, who removes our sin (Heb. 9:26; 2 Pet. 2:24) and gives us righteousness (Phil. 3:9). This can only be done by faith because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6).

There are different groups that teach that salvation is attained by doing good works and trusting in Christ, such as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. But this cannot be so. Sure, we want people to do good works, but it is not the good works that contribute to salvation. Let's take a look at two sections of Scripture where Jesus teaches on this topic, Matt. 7:22-23 and Luke 18:9-14.

This one you quoted..Matt. 7:22-23, "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" 23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

You can see that on the day of judgment there will be people who believe in God and will appeal for their salvation based on their faith in him (they call him Lord) and their good deeds, i.e., prophesying, casting out demons, and performing miracles. Yet Jesus condemns them. Why? It is because they are appealing to their faith and works.

Luke 18:9:14, "And He also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, ‘God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.

In these verses Jesus talks about a Pharisee who believed in God, did good things, and did not do bad things. Yet, he was not saved. On the other hand, the tax gatherer (verse 13) did not appeal to works, but only asked for God's mercy. Jesus says that he was justified, not the Pharisee. That means he was legally righteous in God's eyes. Notice, Jesus taught justification by faith alone.

A lot of fine words without meaning. The scripture teaches us that we are to learn the mind of God "precept by precept, line upon line", thus when you ignore scripture that does not comply with your ideology you form a false teaching.

So, we have in Matthew 5: 16 yet another teaching of Christ "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." So we see that there is a need for good works which led the Apostle to write in James 2: 18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.", 20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?", then in verse 24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.".

So yes, it is faith that saves, yet it is the same faith that is demonstrated by your works, and if you have no works then that faith is useless. I could go on with this, and write an entire tome, however, that is not the purpose of this forum. I will leave you with this thought from 1John 2:15: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him"

 

[Old_Trapper70]

There are some like the pharicess who enjoy pointing out those like the tax collecter and mocking them. But this is where that judge not lest you be judged comes in. God alone gets to do that.

Where in scripture does it say that?

1Corinthians 6: 3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

And where does it say this: "While it is possible to live without sin, it's hard."

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Then too, you use part of a scripture while ignoring the rest of the teaching:

Matthew 7: 1,2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

 

[grumpy]

A lot of fine words without meaning. The scripture teaches us that we are to learn the mind of God "precept by precept, line upon line", thus when you ignore scripture that does not comply with your ideology you form a false teaching.

So, we have in Matthew 5: 16 yet another teaching of Christ "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." So we see that there is a need for good works which led the Apostle to write in James 2: 18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.", 20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?", then in verse 24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.".

So yes, it is faith that saves, yet it is the same faith that is demonstrated by your works, and if you have no works then that faith is useless. I could go on with this, and write an entire tome, however, that is not the purpose of this forum. I will leave you with this thought from 1John 2:15: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him"

Trapper my friend, as you can tell I'm not a legalist anymore. I'm a recovering Legalist. I believe when people screw up they need Grace, but we keep giving them the law. Jesus died because we are all sinners, and he died once and for all.

 

[grumpy]

We are getting way off message here, i'm sorry for that

Trapper....I’m not saying you can’t believe things are wrong.

Of course you can. Everybody makes decisions about right and wrong every single day. You can totally believe something is immoral, unethical or even evil to your heart’s content. The Christian faith demands it. What I’m saying I have a problem with is that we’ve convinced ourselves that attacking people with their sin is the way Christians witness to people.

The world is drowning and we’re yelling at them from the safety of the shore about how they should have taken swimming lessons. Why is it that we feel as though that finding a sin in a lost person’s life that is most obvious to us and then threatening them with eternal fiery damnation if they don’t admit they’re wrong about it is how we reach them with the love of Christ? Is sin the gospel? Is the fact of them accepting that sin as sinful salvation itself? Or is salvation only in Christ and him crucified for the ungodly?

I get where you’re coming from. I do. I mean, of course we have to see that we are sinful and needy before we are even capable of wanting the gospel enough to accept it. I understand that. And, once again, am not poo-pooing the seriousness of sin. It is what separates us from God. I am simply wondering out loud why we feel compelled to do the work of the Spirit in convicting the heart of total strangers rather than giving them the Good News that Jesus saves the worst of sinners.

Is it because we worship morality rather than God? Do we not clearly see that salvation is a free gift, given by God, and not earned or worked toward in any way? Do we actually believe that by convincing someone that they are an awful person, we will somehow ignite in them a passion for their need of Christ?

We can be anti-sin. We can have solid beliefs about issues and even express those beliefs as long as we are known for what the bible says a Christian should be known for, love, and not our stance on those sins.

No, love doesn’t have to pretend sin doesn’t exist. But it reaches through the muck and mire to the heart of the personand cares for them as someone made in the image of God. It whispers Christ love for them and his death on their behalf, while they are still sinners. In his presence are forgiveness, love and truly amazing grace that no one can find any pride in. Only awe and thankfulness. Only peace with God for all sinners. That’s the message. Unflinching ultimate love dooms sin's schemes to failure.

 

[Old_Trapper70]

Trapper my friend, as you can tell I'm not a legalist anymore. I'm a recovering Legalist. I believe when people screw up they need Grace, but we keep giving them the law. Jesus died because we are all sinners, and he died once and for all.

OK, so now we change the topic again. Can they have grace without repentance? Trump, and others like him, reject the concept of repentance. However, while one can say they are not a "legalist" Paul wrote that not being under the law did not mean we could sin so that Grace could abide. Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" Then there is Christ saying in Matthew 5: 18 " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." So, the law is still there, it has not been eliminated, and we are bound to obey it. For without the law there would be no sin Romans 7: 7, 8 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."

 

[Old_Trapper70]

We are getting way off message here, i'm sorry for that

Trapper....I’m not saying you can’t believe things are wrong.

Of course you can. Everybody makes decisions about right and wrong every single day. You can totally believe something is immoral, unethical or even evil to your heart’s content. The Christian faith demands it. What I’m saying I have a problem with is that we’ve convinced ourselves that attacking people with their sin is the way Christians witness to people.

The world is drowning and we’re yelling at them from the safety of the shore about how they should have taken swimming lessons. Why is it that we feel as though that finding a sin in a lost person’s life that is most obvious to us and then threatening them with eternal fiery damnation if they don’t admit they’re wrong about it is how we reach them with the love of Christ? Is sin the gospel? Is the fact of them accepting that sin as sinful salvation itself? Or is salvation only in Christ and him crucified for the ungodly?

I get where you’re coming from. I do. I mean, of course we have to see that we are sinful and needy before we are even capable of wanting the gospel enough to accept it. I understand that. And, once again, am not poo-pooing the seriousness of sin. It is what separates us from God. I am simply wondering out loud why we feel compelled to do the work of the Spirit in convicting the heart of total strangers rather than giving them the Good News that Jesus saves the worst of sinners.

Is it because we worship morality rather than God? Do we not clearly see that salvation is a free gift, given by God, and not earned or worked toward in any way? Do we actually believe that by convincing someone that they are an awful person, we will somehow ignite in them a passion for their need of Christ?

We can be anti-sin. We can have solid beliefs about issues and even express those beliefs as long as we are known for what the bible says a Christian should be known for, love, and not our stance on those sins.

No, love doesn’t have to pretend sin doesn’t exist. But it reaches through the muck and mire to the heart of the personand cares for them as someone made in the image of God. It whispers Christ love for them and his death on their behalf, while they are still sinners. In his presence are forgiveness, love and truly amazing grace that no one can find any pride in. Only awe and thankfulness. Only peace with God for all sinners. That’s the message. Unflinching ultimate love dooms sin's schemes to failure.

Before you can teach a person of the love of God you first have to teach him what sin is, and that he is a sinner. Without the knowledge of sin, and his disobedience, the act of Christs forgiveness means nothing. That is not legalism.

 

[grumpy]

Before you can teach a person of the love of God you first have to teach him what sin is, and that he is a sinner. Without the knowledge of sin, and his disobedience, the act of Christs forgiveness means nothing. That is not legalism.

I won't argue with you.. you win..

 

[Old_Trapper70]

I won't argue with you.. you win..

Sorry. Didn't know it was about winning.

 

[grumpy]

Sorry. Didn't know it was about winning.

I stated my case you disagree.. to me it's not about winning. But what we are doing isn't helpful, and none believers love it..

 

[Old_Trapper70]

I stated my case you disagree.. to me it's not about winning. But what we are doing isn't helpful, and none believers love it..

Here is an example of why I have a problem with your kind of "christianity". First you say "you win..", and then you say "to me it's not about winning.". It is that kind of hypocrisy that turns the non-believer off, not the discussion of scripture. Similar are those who claim to be Christian, and yet consistently vote for the likes of Trump rather then a righteous man. And then they whine about the loss of Christian belief in the country.

As we find in James 5: 19, 20

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

 

[Alexia]

So all these women that have come forward with the same tales, what does it say about him? We can hear the tapes as well, so their stories seem valid and correlate with what he has been recorded as saying. Women that still defend him need their heads tested, what if it was them that had to put up with abuse?

 

[dogtowner]

So all these women that have come forward with the same tales, what does it say about him? We can hear the tapes as well, so their stories seem valid and correlate with what he has been recorded as saying. Women that still defend him need their heads tested, what if it was them that had to put up with abuse?

Fooling around is not right but selling political favor from a cabinet level position is unthinkable.