The Speech

[Coyote]

Uhm, can't speak for anyone else here, but I have criticized Falwell/Robertson/et al. in the past, and I've done it without feeling the need for qualification.

But are you conceding that Wright's words are at least as bad as those of Falwell/Robertson?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

 

[Coyote]

Obama's disavowal is disingenuous - he sat listening to the wright rants with his children for20 years, and only spoke against it when he was found out and running for president.



Falwell's bible condemns homosexuals - you might not like it, but that's what it says. Falwell's comments have always attacked homosexual's behavior, not homosexuals themselves.

1. Attacking homosexual behavior instead of the homosexual himself is nothing more then a clever semantical dance.

2. Falwell's comments do not make consistently make any distinction between person and behavior. He condemns the individual.

3. Wright's heritage if black liberation theology - that came out of a legacy of forced segregation and civil rights. Are you saying that because Falwell's religion condemns homosexuality that it's ok but because Wrights theology condemns white racism (in his view) - it's not ok?

Smells suspiciously like a double standard at work.

None of this is anywhere near Wright telling thousands of blacks that the government is out to kill them all with AIDS. And about the race stuff - things he allegedy said 50 years ago - he changed his mind before he died and had black members of his church.

Really - you don't think so? You think it's ok to express hatred and intolerance towards some groups but not towards others?

In terms of AIDS - that isn't just Wright speaking. That's a belief held by many people in the black community.

 

[Coyote]

Well in my mind you have done an adequate job of demonstrating that Falwell was a bigot.

But here is where I am lost; who has been calling him their mentor and asking us to think that they can heal our nation's racial/sexual divide?

He's been welcomed as a close friend and religious advisor in a number of White Houses - particularly the current one.

 

[Coyote]

One thing to remember - it's not Wright running. It's Obama.

I have yet to see him say anything to support Wrights most strongly worded views.

 

[Pandora]

That's because we haven't had a serious black presidential contender before.

If the biggest issue with Obama was he wants to take away guns and raise taxes, that would NOT cause a racial devide.

Its the horrible things his pastor said that caused people to pause, and the things his wife said, a few things he said himself like typical white people and his grandma was afraid of black men on the street. those things are what has caused the devide.

he would be just another liberal running for president if it was all about taxes and gun control abortion and the like.

His words and the words of the people surrounded by him have caused the devide! IMO

 

[Coyote]

If the biggest issue with Obama was he wants to take away guns and raise taxes, that would NOT cause a racial devide.

Its the horrible things his pastor said that caused people to pause, and the things his wife said, a few things he said himself like typical white people and his grandma was afraid of black men on the street. those things are what has caused the devide.

he would be just another liberal running for president if it was all about taxes and gun control abortion and the like.

His words and the words of the people surrounded by him have caused the devide! IMO

In otherwords don't talk about race.

Race is the elephant in the middle of the room that everyone dances around.

Maybe it's time to confront it head on. Like Obama is doing.

I noticed that you picked up on his critical comments about his grandmother being a "typical white person" etc. but ignored the critical comments he made about Wright in the same speech saying he was stuck in the past.

 

[Pandora]

He's been welcomed as a close friend and religious advisor in a number of White Houses - particularly the current one.

being welcomed to the white house along with other pastors on prayer day is not in any way the same as saying

this man is my spiritual advisor for 20 years
this man is my mentor

or the worst of all

Before the speech...."i didnt know my pastor was racist or had these views against america."

after the speech.... Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes

he has the audasidy to tell us that he has the judgement to lead but he didnt have the judgment to figure out his pastor was a racist anti american person in 20 years.

he wont have 20 years to pick a cabinet!

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

First, on Farrakhan, Obama said the following: "I decry racism and anti-Semitism in every form and strongly condemn the anti-Semitic statements made by Minister Farrakhan...I assume that Trumpet Magazine made its own decision to honor Farrakhan based on his efforts to rehabilitate ex-offenders, but it is not a decision with which I agree."

Second, Falwell said the following which is every bit as hateful and bigoted as anything Wright said:

“AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals”

The true Negro does not want integration... He realizes his potential is far better among his own race... It will destroy our race eventually... In one northern city, a pastor friend of mine tells me that a couple of opposite race live next door to his church as man and wife... It boils down to whether we are going to take God's Word as final. http://www.frostillustrated.com/full.php?sid=1384

Concerning 9/11: I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way — all of them who have tried to secularize America — I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen.

"Everybody needs somebody to look down on, who they can be better than at any time they choose, someone doin' something dirty decent folks can frown on, you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me."
--Kris Kristopherson from his song JESUS WAS A CAPRICORN

Great post, Coyote!

 

[Libsmasher]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libsmasher
Obama's disavowal is disingenuous - he sat listening to the wright rants with his children for20 years, and only spoke against it when he was found out and running for president.



Falwell's bible condemns homosexuals - you might not like it, but that's what it says. Falwell's comments have always attacked homosexual's behavior, not homosexuals themselves.

1. Attacking homosexual behavior instead of the homosexual himself is nothing more then a clever semantical dance.

Not at all - to claim that is to refute a fundamental precept of Christianity - that sin resides in one's >>>BEHAVIOR<<<.

2. Falwell's comments do not make consistently make any distinction between person and behavior. He condemns the individual.

That's false, and you have no proof.

3. Wright's heritage if black liberation theology - that came out of a legacy of forced segregation and civil rights.

I don't care if his lunacy came from the high Hilalayas on the back of a golden Yak - it's still lunacy.

Are you saying that because Falwell's religion condemns homosexuality that it's ok but because Wrights theology condemns white racism (in his view) - it's not ok?

Smells suspiciously like a double standard at work.

Falwell's claims about homosexuality are just religious dogma. Wright's assertions are that the federal government created AIDS to kill black people has nothing to do with religion - it's just lunacy. To try to equate Wright's ravings to Falwell's religious conceptions is silly.

Quote:
None of this is anywhere near Wright telling thousands of blacks that the government is out to kill them all with AIDS. And about the race stuff - things he allegedy said 50 years ago - he changed his mind before he died and had black members of his church.

Really - you don't think so? You think it's ok to express hatred and intolerance towards some groups but not towards others?

Falwell never preached intolerance to people, but rather people's wrong (according to church doctrine) behavior, which is called sin. About the third time I've attemped to clarify your (deliberate?) muddle - hope it sinks in.

In terms of AIDS - that isn't just Wright speaking. That's a belief held by many people in the black community

There are MANY lunatics in the black community? That's unfortunate for them.

 

[Coyote]

Not at all - to claim that is to refute a fundamental precept of Christianity - that sin resides in one's >>>BEHAVIOR<<<.

These are quotes condemning in a most hateful way - homosexuals not homesexuality.

AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen."

AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters.

That's false, and you have no proof.

Proof is in the man's words themselves.

I don't care if his lunacy came from the high Hilalayas on the back of a golden Yak - it's still lunacy.

I see. So....Wright is lunacy but Falwell:

• I had a student ask me, "Could the savior you believe in save Osama bin Laden?" Of course, we know the blood of Jesus Christ can save him, and then he must be executed.
  
• The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews.
  
• “[homosexuals are] brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system [that] will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven.”
  
  
• I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!

is not?

Falwell's claims about homosexuality are just religious dogma. Wright's assertions are that the federal government created AIDS to kill black people has nothing to do with religion - it's just lunacy. To try to equate Wright's ravings to Falwell's religious conceptions is silly.

And how is that different from Falwell's assertions that 9/11 is the result of liberal (Democrat) social politics?

The difference is nominal.

Falwell never preached intolerance to people, but rather people's wrong (according to church doctrine) behavior, which is called sin. About the third time I've attemped to clarify your (deliberate?) muddle - hope it sinks in.

Take a look at the man's words themselves.

 

[Coyote]

being welcomed to the white house along with other pastors on prayer day is not in any way the same as saying

this man is my spiritual advisor for 20 years
this man is my mentor

Wright brought Obama into Christianity. In that respect he is a spiritual mentor.

Beyond that - I see little difference in a candidate claiming a close friendship with a religious person (by which you imply agreement) and calling them a mentor. The difference is only one of degree and to ignore one and focus on the other is a bit hypocritical.

For example - Obama's spiritual affiliations are focused upon but that of conservatives largely ignored.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/mccain-spiritual-guide-ac_n_92757.html?page=4]

After years of evangelistically oriented and vetted candidates I'm heartily sick of religion being a center-piece of a person's fitness for candidacy. I'm more interested in Obama's actual words and actions then that of the media's interpretations and obsessions.

So far I like what I see and I like the way he has handled the issue of race by neither ignoring it nor playing it up. It's there, it's a fact and he does not agree with Wright's views on the unchanging nature of it.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I bet your eyes are brown.

Not at all - to claim that is to refute a fundamental precept of Christianity - that sin resides in one's >>>BEHAVIOR<<<.

Dingo kidneys, Lipsmasher, the Bible has nothing to say about homosexual people in loving relationships--it condemns fornication though, gay or straight. If Bible-beaters (people who use the Bible as a weapon) would do their research they'd know that homosexuality (a word not even coined until the end of the 19th century) was not a cultural concept in Bible times and for the first 1200 years (approx.) the church had nothing to say about homosexual people. Jesus never had a word to say about it, the apostle Paul made up a word and people have ASSUMED that he meant homosexuals, but there's not proof of that. King David had a gay lover, Jonathon and God didn't have a problem with that. (I know one person who has a whole different theory on this particular Bible story--as he does on many--but for most men getting naked with our buddies, giving them your underwear, and lying on the ground kissing them till they "exceeded" is considered homosexual behavior). If the things in I Samuel and II Samuel were said about two men today, Jerry Falwell would climb out of his grave and condemn them in the most stringent terms.

That's false, and you have no proof.

Oh, please, Jerry was a loudmouth bigot who left so many ugly quotes that there is even a website listing them: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/foulwell.htm

Falwell's claims about homosexuality are just religious dogma. Wright's assertions are that the federal government created AIDS to kill black people has nothing to do with religion - it's just lunacy. To try to equate Wright's ravings to Falwell's religious conceptions is silly.

You usually aren't this dense, Libs, to say that someone making a claim against the US government for bad behavior is a greater lunacy that condemning people in the name of the Creator of the Universe? Hello? We know the US government has done some incredibly cruel and stupid things to it's own people. Check out the US Public Health Service study that was done on the effects of syphillis, in which illiterate black people were recruited by doctors (!) and under the guise of a new treatment regimen they were allowed to die without treatement while the doctors simpy recorded what happened to them. It cost the American people millions in reparation when the study was finally exposed. How about the American soldiers who were marched through ground zero right after atomic bomb tests? You know, the soldiers who were lied to about the effects of radiation, the same soldiers who almost to a man died of cancer from the radiation.

On the other hand, no one speaking for God has a shred of proof that what they are saying has any connection whatever with God.

Personally, Wright and Falwell look like twins to me, idiot twins.

Falwell never preached intolerance to people, but rather people's wrong (according to church doctrine) behavior, which is called sin. About the third time I've attemped to clarify your (deliberate?) muddle - hope it sinks in.

Go to the website, Falwell preached intolerance and hatred, the man was such a bigot that they have his picture in the dictionary to illustrate the word "bigot".

 

[Coyote]

I bet your eyes are brown.

You usually aren't this dense, Libs, to say that someone making a claim against the US government for bad behavior is a greater lunacy that condemning people in the name of the Creator of the Universe? Hello? We know the US government has done some incredibly cruel and stupid things to it's own people. Check out the US Public Health Service study that was done on the effects of syphillis, in which illiterate black people were recruited by doctors (!) and under the guise of a new treatment regimen they were allowed to die without treatement while the doctors simpy recorded what happened to them. It cost the American people millions in reparation when the study was finally exposed. How about the American soldiers who were marched through ground zero right after atomic bomb tests? You know, the soldiers who were lied to about the effects of radiation, the same soldiers who almost to a man died of cancer from the radiation.

EXACTLY. So is it any surprise that some black people feel that the government might be responsible for AIDS or that the CIA is responsible for crack cocaine in poor black neighborhoods?

People are incensed when Wright expresses those opinions but not when the likes of Falwell compares the ACLU to the Nazi's and Democrats to devil worshippers?

Come on. The differences are negligable. It's just that some people feel that some types of hate speech are ok while others aren't.

There's a word for that...

 

[Dr.Who]

Falwell's bible condemns homosexuals - you might not like it, but that's what it says. Falwell's comments have always attacked homosexual's behavior, not homosexuals themselves.

Maybe Falwell's does but the one the rest of us read is not quite so clear. The word doesn't even exist in the bible as we use it today. All sorts of people will use a book to justify their own biases rather than let the book shape them.

If he really was against homosexuality rather than homosexuals then he probably should have said:


“AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexual behavior; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexual behavior”

Though I think if he looked in his bible he might find that Christians lived in cultures that practiced all sorts of things that were not their way and they didn't get up on a high horse about men who married concubines or any other number of things. Moses even married a black women (referring to his other comment) and not only did no one complain but they just didn't think too much about it at all.

 

[Dr.Who]

1. Attacking homosexual behavior instead of the homosexual himself is nothing more then a clever semantical dance.

It could be. And knowing what we know about Falwell it probably is. But it also could be that some people are opposed to the behavior and love the people. I would think that a number of parents or siblings of gays might fall into this group. I myself am on the fence about whether or not the behavior is problematic (for both secular and religious reasons) but have no doubts that the people are like everyone else.

2. Falwell's comments do not make consistently make any distinction between person and behavior. He condemns the individual.

Looks that way!!

Really - you don't think so? You think it's ok to express hatred and intolerance towards some groups but not towards others?

Both Wright and Falwell were wrong. From what I have seen here Wright was more over the top.