US Becoming Pro-Life

[Pandora]

The decision of taking someone off of life support has something to do with killing another person, if you believe that said person is still alive.

I think its just like suicide. If the person said before they got in that state, should I ever get in this state please let me die. I am perfectly ok with suicide.

I submit that a decision that only affects the person making that decision is still heart wrenching, to that person and to his/her family. Having a radical total hysterectomy, for example, has a profound effect on the woman involved, and on her husband.

I had a radical hysterectomy and I am here to tell you there was nothing heart wrenching about it. I have also had an abortion. Its been years ago and I still am bothered by it. I know that I will never get over having done what I did.

Also, is spending millions on one child, instead of spending those same millions to save a hundred children, not tantamount to killing 99? Sure, if the millions belong to the parents of the one child, then it is their decision. Usually, that is not the case, but, sure, they should be allowed to spend their own money however they see fit.

Only a socialist or communist or statist or humanist would think a person spending what ever they do on their own child would tantamount to killing 99. its funny too because hollywierd is full of socialist, communists humanists who spend all their money on themselves but think that statement is accurate.

Just as a pregnant woman can use her body however she sees fit, either to carry the fetus to term, or not.

But, neither decision should be taken lightly.

Yes a pregnant woman can choose to kill her child, its legal I agree with you there, but the dumb woman better not forget her seat belt right, because its only her body to do with what she wants when it comes to killing her offspring. The rest of the time the state and the law makes the rules.

 

[Pandora]

It is your word "murder" that puzzles me.

If you step on a spider, have you murdered the spider?

If abortion is murder, then why should the murderer be treated differently from any other murderer?

The argument boils down to when a human being becomes a human being. If it is at conception, then any abortion is no different from infantacide, and so must be treated as such.

If a human being become so at birth, then any abortion up to that moment is OK.

It seems to me that abortion actually occupies a gray zone, somewhere between murder and removing a tumor.

define murder for me?


I understand that killing is when you are in war and fight and the other guy dies, or something to that effect.

what is murder? Doesn't murder have to be pre planned? like a doctors appointment to get your abortion? Doesnt murder have intent to kill ? Explain to me where I am wrong?

 

[Pandora]

It is your word "murder" that puzzles me.

If you step on a spider, have you murdered the spider?

If abortion is murder, then why should the murderer be treated differently from any other murderer?

The argument boils down to when a human being becomes a human being. If it is at conception, then any abortion is no different from infantacide, and so must be treated as such.

If a human being become so at birth, then any abortion up to that moment is OK.

It seems to me that abortion actually occupies a gray zone, somewhere between murder and removing a tumor.

I think if you look at my post I said kill a spider

I dont think you can murder a deer when hunting but you do kill it
murder is saved for human beings IMO

when does a baby become a human being? Hrmm.. let me think. I know they start out as cats right and eventually they turn to dogs and then right before birth they are monkeys right?

If you cant figure out when a human being becomes a human being then are you sure you are now a human being? do you have kids? when did they become human beings?

when a woman in the 8th month delivers her baby feet first because she is having a partial birth abortion are those human feet? once the butt comes out is it a human butt? When the doctor stabs the back of the babys head was it a human head? when it comes out and there is a dead baby on the table what species is that baby if not a human baby?

when a baby is born because the abortion botched and the nurse holds the baby or takes it to the soiled utility room to die but its there now alive and breathing, what is it? what species is that baby if not a human being?

 

[GenSeneca]

It seems to me that abortion actually occupies a gray zone, somewhere between murder and removing a tumor.

Was slavery a "gray zone"?

when does a baby become a human being? Hrmm.. let me think. I know they start out as cats right and eventually they turn to dogs and then right before birth they are monkeys right?

They must start off as Man-Bear-Pigs, that's why its so crucial we slay the beasts while still in the womb.

 

[Pandora]

Was slavery a "gray zone"?


They must start off as Man-Bear-Pigs, that's why its so crucial we slay the beasts while still in the womb.

Slavery was ok because the Supreme Court ruled that black people did not have full personhood and were in fact property, just like the Supreme Court ruled that children in the womb are not persons and we have a right to rip them apart limb by limb if we don’t want to deal with them or if they are not the sex we want or if they have flaws that we don’t care to see, but only till the child err sorry the “fetus” is viable. Then it becomes ??? It still can’t be a human baby or a person or we wouldn’t be able to do partial birth abortion so I guess yes it must be a very dangerous Man-Bear-Pig.

Eventually the Supreme Court might realize that a baby is as much a person as a slave was and over turn the ruling, that remains to be seen but for now killing your off spring is comparable to the Dred Scott case of 1857 both legal both acceptable and both moral choices but I am sure that keeping slaves was a “heart wrenching” decision.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I know a lady who is proud of the fact she has had 17 abortions

I have seen women with their tee shirts on that say

I had and abortion
and Im proud!

Its heart wrenching I am sure for someone who was raped, someone who has a pregnancy in their tubes or someone who has a kidney that can not handle a pregnancy

but what in the hell is heart wrenching about an operation that removes a tumor? many women who believe in abortion consider the pregnancy a tumor, why would that be heart wrenching?

You can not walk in their 'moccasins' so you'll never be able to fully understand what drove those women to make that choice...never - ever!

I've known women that wear those "I'm proud T-Shirts" too and quite a few of them project the attitude of indifference but they were hurting and still hurt from the choice that they had to make. Judging people from the outside of the conflict simply by what your visually see is 'EXTREME' to say the least! Were you there holding their hand providing compassionate comfort to them when they had to make that 'live with you forever moment decision'???

I too know one young women that seemed so confused about birth control that she used the abortion system as a preventative measure to 'NOT' be a parent...but that is rare compared to the thousands of women that I've known who were faced with the most heart wrenching choice and paid for the abortion.

To me and quite a few of those women..."life begins with the first breath that the baby takes"...does it make the choice any easier to abort...ABSOLUTELY NOT! But for all of those women the choice is theirs to make and nobody else's business what they decide to do or 'NOT DO'...It is not up to me to judge one way or the other!!!

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Originally Posted by PLC1
I submit that a decision that only affects the person making that decision is still heart wrenching, to that person and to his/her family. Having a radical total hysterectomy, for example, has a profound effect on the woman involved, and on her husband.

Pandora replied: I had a radical hysterectomy and I am here to tell you there was nothing heart wrenching about it. I have also had an abortion. Its been years ago and I still am bothered by it. I know that I will never get over having done what I did.

And I offer up the counter balance to that: Raped at 20 years of age and I chose to abort the baby...horrible/nightmare choice but I don't regret it not one time!

Endometrian Cancer at age 27 (removed all of my female organs with that massive 10# tumor) gut wrenching/frustrating still resent that event...but I lived to talk about it!

But I'm more aware of the long thought process that leads up to these earth shaking events and 'choices' that women face. Sure there will always be the 'FEW SELECT' lessor thinking humans that utilize things like 'abortion' as a form of birth control...{wish we were better behaved and logical about birth control}...but as with everything 'free will' we humans will always have the select few who just don't get it and act horribly irresponsible about their own bodies!!! But we can't monitor every human to act accordingly or we become another CHINA and I sure as **** don't want to live in that environment either!

 

[Pandora]

You can not walk in their 'moccasins' so you'll never be able to fully understand what drove those women to make that choice...never - ever!

Actually yes I can know, she told me. I got it right from the horse’s mouth so to speak. To her it was ok because it was legal period.

I've known women that wear those "I'm proud T-Shirts" too and quite a few of them project the attitude of indifference but they were hurting and still hurt from the choice that they had to make. Judging people from the outside of the conflict simply by what your visually see is 'EXTREME' to say the least! Were you there holding their hand providing compassionate comfort to them when they had to make that 'live with you forever moment decision'???

yep I have comforted women who have had abortions as I have also been comforted by others, some of us realize our mistake and are terribly sorry for it no doubt.

I too know one young women that seemed so confused about birth control that she used the abortion system as a preventative measure to 'NOT' be a parent...but that is rare compared to the thousands of women that I've known who were faced with the most heart wrenching choice and paid for the abortion.

I spent years in group therapy with other women who had abortions, its hardly one woman that I know…

To me and quite a few of those women..."life begins with the first breath that the baby takes"...does it make the choice any easier to abort...ABSOLUTELY NOT! But for all of those women the choice is theirs to make and nobody else's business what they decide to do or 'NOT DO'...It is not up to me to judge one way or the other!!!

oh then you are not with obama on this matter because he is ok with killing the child even after they are born after they have breathed their first breath if the original intent was to abort and the child lived through the abortion he is ok with killing the child because they were meant to be an abortion, breathing on their own or not.

 

[Pandora]

And I offer up the counter balance to that: Raped at 20 years of age and I chose to abort the baby...horrible/nightmare choice but I don't regret it not one time!

Endometrian Cancer at age 27 (removed all of my female organs with that massive 10# tumor) gut wrenching/frustrating still resent that event...but I lived to talk about it!

But I'm more aware of the long thought process that leads up to these earth shaking events and 'choices' that women face. Sure there will always be the 'FEW SELECT' lessor thinking humans that utilize things like 'abortion' as a form of birth control...{wish we were better behaved and logical about birth control}...but as with everything 'free will' we humans will always have the select few who just don't get it and act horribly irresponsible about their own bodies!!! But we can't monitor every human to act accordingly or we become another CHINA and I sure as **** don't want to live in that environment either!

I am not saying that its never heart wrenching to have an abortion I am saying that for most women it is not. there is always that case of rape, incest or pregnancy in the tubes where there it is heart wrenching, its just that is the exeption, not the rule.


if you think abortion is ok to do then why the frak to you care how often its done, if its ok to do then it shouldnt matter if a woman does it as a form of birth control, its only bad to see it as birth control if you consider it a child that is being killed!

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

I am not saying that its never heart wrenching to have an abortion I am saying that for most women it is not. there is always that case of rape, incest or pregnancy in the tubes where there it is heart wrenching, its just that is the exeption, not the rule.

But it isn't the rule and on that we'll agree to disagree...and you have no knowledge to justify that statement!

if you think abortion is ok to do then why the frak to you care how often its done, if its ok to do then it shouldnt matter if a woman does it as a form of birth control, its only bad to see it as birth control if you consider it a child that is being killed!

Aww...here is where your lack of knowledge leads you straight into that 'locked door for understanding'. The damage that is done to a woman's womb by multiple abortions is permanent and the future ability to have a full term birth is much compromised by these events!

And for all of those 'Hard Wired Right To Lifers' it is just one more excuse to drag the 'free choice' into the gutter of wrong thinking, IMO Abortions were not meant to be a form of 'birth control' and unfortunately the history of women being suppressed and their ability to find 'work' {not being a HO} has made this the large issue for many countries and poorest of the poor. And since I do care about our species and I can give a 'frak' about my fellow gender and that I don't view a baby a baby until it draws that first breath...I think what I do and I can

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Roe v Wade is doomed to go the way of the Dredd Scott ruling.... Both were in support of barbaric practices that denied individual their rights based on the argument that they were not individuals but property.

Oh.....you mean, like, how women were worth half as much as a man?

Bible: Leviticus 27:3-7

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Do you plan to make women take classes on learning how not to be such a selfish person? The biggest reason women have abortions is they are not interested in being burdened with a pregnancy.

I'm sure you have the "conservative" Patriarchs' permission to make such an evaluation.

​

 

[top gun]

If you have ever paid attention to my posts, I have never said I thought abortion should be banned. I think its wrong, I think its murder and I do think late term, partial birth abortions should be banned and for Gods sake I am against obama 100% when it comes to killing living babies outside the womb!

But I don’t think they should be made illegal in the first 3 months. Here is what I do think.

I think states have a right to decide if they want to have abortions in their state

I think no tax payer should EVER have to pay for someone to kill a child

I think more should be done to educate women on what exactly they are doing when they seek an abortion

And I think we should work harder to help women who want to carry the baby to term and adopt or even carry the baby to term and keep the baby.

The problem is this. The Anti-Choice side wants full personhood at conception so even just a a few fertilized cells is a problem for them. Eventually even the Birth Control Pill would be too much for them. That's why the courts have decided "viability" is the time that after passed an abortion should not be performed. And that makes sense to me.

And another thing you've said a few times really does need cleared up. It's in regard to two different things late term abortions... and President Obama & the "born alive" after van abortion issue. These have been vastly inaccurately portrayed.

On late term abortion that ONLY happens in life of the mother and late term diagnosis of super extreme handicap. First off the woman's life ALWAYS trumps the fetus because there's just no way we'll ever make women die in childbirth against their will. And on the severe handicap that's a doctor saying things are so bad the baby probably wouldn't even live in the first place and if it did it's most likely in a vegetative state. Both these also seem reasonable to me.

On the Obama "born live" vote you have to remember that the medical board in Illinois had the exact same opinion on the issue. They reality is that if a fetus survived an abortion it would set up a system where they then had to try and reverse all the damage done from the abortion to save a fetus... 99. something % of the time impossible. Then that opened them up to massive lawsuits from the mother who wanted and paid for an abortion. So the decision was made, no life saving effort after a abortion. So there is reasons for this. It's not at all like those on the Right tend to portray it. The doctors wanted it this way.

Taxpayers don't pay anything for abortions, they are paid for at the time of service... so we're in agreement here.

I don't see any reason to put the woman through any forced classes on abortions. Every woman knows what an abortion is. This is not something taken lightly.

And we are in agreement that more should be done to first promote ways not to get pregnant and secondly to help fund programs that would help women that choose to have a child. The problem here is whether it's right or wrong it's the Conservatives that fight this type of funding tooth & nail in fact constantly trying to cut back on the current spending levels for things like you have recommended.

So we have some common ground which is good. To be honest I'd love to see a compromise... but it will never happen because both sides want it all their way.

If say there was an agreement between the Right & Left for a bipartisan Constitutional Amendment to be put forward that a woman had a guaranteed right to an abortion but the time-line was pushed back to say just a little over the first trimester... between 3 & 4 months... I would probably see that as a compromise to consider.

But like I said before... we still managed to find some common ground which is a start.

 

[PLC1]

define murder for me?


I understand that killing is when you are in war and fight and the other guy dies, or something to that effect.

what is murder? Doesn't murder have to be pre planned? like a doctors appointment to get your abortion? Doesnt murder have intent to kill ? Explain to me where I am wrong?

Murder is the purposful taking of a human life for reasons other than self defense.

It does not have to be pre planned. Premeditated murder is dealt with more harshly, but crimes of passion can also be murder.

Killing non humans is not murder.
Killing during war is not murder.
Killing in self defense is not murder.
Accidental killing is not murder.

Murder is universally condemned by the laws of every nation on Earth, or at least, every civilized nation on Earth.

If abortion any time after conception is murder, then why shouldn't it be banned? No other sort of murder is allowed by law, is it?

The question boils down to when a human becomes a human. If it is, as many contend, at conception, then abortion at any stage is the taking of an innocent life, and is therefore murder, even if the zygote consists of a few microscopic cells.

I don't think you really believe that abortion is murder (well, maybe partial birth abortion, or even late term abortion), but certainly not any abortion. If you really believed that killing a zygote that could only be seen in the microscope was murder, then there is no argument that could sway you to support legalization at any stage.

I think you're using the word "murder" as an emotional statement.

 

[Pandora]

But it isn't the rule and on that we'll agree to disagree...and you have no knowledge to justify that statement!

I would be very interested in your data that rape and incest is the rule rather than the exception in abortions. I know its less than 5% for both but you seem to call that an opinion, please give data showing rape and incest is the leading reasons for abortions.

Aww...here is where your lack of knowledge leads you straight into that 'locked door for understanding'. The damage that is done to a woman's womb by multiple abortions is permanent and the future ability to have a full term birth is much compromised by these events!

I have no lack of knowledge in the damage of a woman’s body from abortions. Its in fact one of my many gripes, doctors do not warn women up front how damaging it is to their body. I could have told you that if I thought you wanted to know but I thought the topic was babies who are ripped apart limb by limb not the dangerous after effects to the woman who causes it.

And for all of those 'Hard Wired Right To Lifers' it is just one more excuse to drag the 'free choice' into the gutter of wrong thinking, IMO Abortions were not meant to be a form of 'birth control' and unfortunately the history of women being suppressed and their ability to find 'work' {not being a HO} has made this the large issue for many countries and poorest of the poor. And since I do care about our species and I can give a 'frak' about my fellow gender and that I don't view a baby a baby until it draws that first breath...I think what I do and I can

Free Choice? First off its not free its very costly money wise and its even more costly in that a human child is killed, and again it’s not choice its abortion, you just wrap it in a friendly word so it does not sound like what it is. Abortion is ending the life of a human baby.

You are at odds with obama and Barbara boxer both. He doesn’t think it’s a baby even after its born if its meant to be an abortion and she doesn’t consider it a baby till someone picks it up and claims it.