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US military kills civilians

Discussion in 'World Politics' started by Popeye, Nov 28, 2007.

  1. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Along with the rapes and outright murders, we have "accidental" shootings of civilians. How many times have we heard stories similar to this? How many more are we going to hear?
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/22207.html
     
  2. Questerr

    Questerr Member

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    Attrocity? No.

    I'd like to point out that in all these cases the Iraqis were violating traffic controls put in place by the US military. They disregarded US signals to stop and the US troops responded as per their Rules of Engagement.

    In the US Army, you always have the right to protect yourself from harm. If I saw either of these vehicles doing as they did and I signalled them to stop but they kept moving, I would have fired and killed everyone on board if it meant protecting myself from a possible car bomb.
     
  3. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Hmmm... "violating traffic controls" ---penalty----death

    There have been rapes, and outright murders of Iraqi civilians by US military personnel. One celebrated case of the rape of a young girl and the murder of her family, comes to mind. I assume you would like to justify that also. A deserved penalty for jaywalking perhaps? Possibly not treating their American occupiers with the proper deference? Is there anything that cannot be justified per your "Rules of Engagement"?
     
  4. Questerr

    Questerr Member

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    Over stating the truth/sensationising with no meaning

    No,violating traffic controls:

    Here's a standard series of actions in the case ofsomething trying to break through a traffic control point:

    1. Signal for the driver to stop
    2. Shout for the driver to stop
    3. Gesture with weapon to get the driver to stop.
    4. Fire a warning shot (this one happened, the soldier's shot richocheted)
    5. If the driver still refuses to stop, use all neccessary force to protect yourself from harm.

    The soldier's standing there didn't know that the drivers were driving civilians around. For all those soldiers knew those drivers were terrorists in car bombs using coerced civilians as shields in order to get close and kill US troops.

    They responded exactly I would have. In battle, if the choice is between possibly killing a civilian in a car who has refused to stop even when I told him to, or possibly letting a suicide bomber get close and kill me and my friends and possibly other civilians, I will kill them every time.

    The rape case is an extreme, as are the murders. They are not the standard thing in Iraq. I've been there, I've got many friends who have been there and we all agree that those that committed those attrocities should be sent to jail for rest of their lives. They are wrong.

    The soldiers that accidently killed innocent people when they tried to run their checkpoints, did just that: accidently killing innocent people. But they were doing the right thing. They had to use the knowledge they had at the time to protect themselves and their buddies.

    Rules of Engagement are designed to protect US troops and the civilians in the area they operate. But if civilians chose to act the same way a suicide bomber would, they should expect that we would respond the same.
     
  5. USMC the Almighty

    USMC the Almighty New Member

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    I don't want to touch this thread with a ten foot pole.
     
  6. Lasher

    Lasher New Member

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    -------------
    I don't blame you, old sport.
     
  7. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

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    If its between some hajj who might or might not be a threat to me or any of buddies and my own life, sorry hajj, your goin' down. Next time walk slower/stop when i tell you to/don't act suspicious/don't throw rocks at me.

    Oh and **** you Popeye. Until you know what its like, you can kiss my ass.
     
  8. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    In the end, it's war. And an unfortunate reality is war has never been pretty or sanitary or safe for civilians or soldiers. Unless you're Walt Disney.
     
  9. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    Since you prefer to keep civility out of this , you're a punk General.
     
  10. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    I dont think anyone is proud of this. I certainly am not. I dont think the people have used force to stop a vehicle that wasnt loaded with explosives enjoyed it.
    But I will echo the earlier comments. When it comes to working a checkpoint, the Iraqis know damn well what the procedure is. They also know the consequences of not obeying them.

    If I am working a checkpoint, and someone doesnt obey the rules, the US military has rules of engagement. Once those have been surpassed it is the responsibility of the soldier to engage with all means necessary. I would not hesitate to shoot under those circumstances and it is often far to easy to second guess those in that situation. Always remember, anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting twice.

    As for the criminal issues such as Rape and outright murder. Those are shameful, but representative of a very small minority among those serving and the current military we have is very well behaved compared to other militaries and the US military in the past, especially with conscripts.

    War is war. It is bloody, sad, and horrible. I wish it didnt have to be that way. But we through little choice of our own are in this place. Its a shame the newspapers arent interviewing the doctors and soldiers who are saving the lives of children in Iraq from non-combat causes.
     
  11. 9sublime

    9sublime Active Member

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    General, refrain from the language, its pathetic and childish.

    And also, your a confessed obsese war nerd, so how do you know what its like?
     
  12. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

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    Civility? You should have thought about that before you accused our troops of being murderers and rapists.
     
  13. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

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    hey 9, hows life?
     
  14. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

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    Rape/Theft was MUCH more common during WW2. Even by our own troops.
     
  15. Popeye

    Popeye Active Member

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    I'm so sorry that I didn't check with you first, General, before posting a legitimate news story, accompanied by my opinion. I didn't expect it to be popular, casting our military in a bad light rarely is.

    Others, however, managed to disagree without becoming uncivil. Apparently you have difficulty keeping your emotions in check. May I suggest, you try acting like a man as opposed to a punk.
     
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