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What do you think...should her medals be stripped?

Discussion in 'Historical Events & Figures' started by ASPCA4EVER, Sep 11, 2009.

  1. ASPCA4EVER

    ASPCA4EVER New Member

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    SYDNEY (AP) - The IAAF said Friday it has received the results of gender tests on South African runner Caster Semenya but is still reviewing them and will not issue any final decision until November.

    The International Association of Athletics Federations did not confirm or deny Australian newspaper reports that the recently crowned women's world 800-meter champion has male and female sexual organs.
    "We would like to emphasize that these should not be considered as official statements by the IAAF," the federation said in a statement regarding the reports that first appeared in News Limited and Fairfax newspapers.
    Gender bender?

    [​IMG] The controversy surrounding Caster Semenya hasn't ended yet. See what all the fuss is about in these pictures.
    The Australian newspaper reported in its Friday edition that medical reports on the 18-year-old Semenya indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal male testes, which are producing large amounts of testosterone.
    "We can officially confirm that gender verification test results will be examined by a group of medical experts," the IAAF said in a written statement. "No decision on the case will be communicated until the IAAF has had the opportunity to complete this examination. We do not expect to make a final decision on this case before the next meeting of the IAAF Council which takes place in Monaco on November 20-21."
    At a news conference in Greece on Friday, IAAF general secretary Pierre Weiss, IAAF vice president Sergei Bubka and other association officials refused to make any comment on the Semenya case and distributed the IAAF's written statement to reporters.
    The IAAF officials are in the northern Greek city of Thessaloniki for this weekend's World Athletics Final.
    After dominating her race at the world championships in Berlin last month, Semenya underwent blood and chromosome tests, as well as a gynecological examination.
    Earlier, in an e-mail to The Associated Press, IAAF spokesman Nick Davies said Thursday he couldn't confirm the Australian news reports.
    "I simply haven't seen the results," Davies said. "We have received the results from Germany, but they now need to be examined by a group of experts and we will not be in a position to speak to the athlete about them for at least a few weeks.
    "After that, depending on the results, we will meet privately with the athlete to discuss further action."
    Semenya's father, Jacob, expressed anger when contacted by the AP on Friday morning, saying people who insinuate his daughter is not a woman "are sick. They are crazy."
    [​IMG]Semenya's reported condition could have grave medical implications. (Franck Fife / Getty Images)
    He said he had not been told anything by the IAAF, Athletics South Africa or his daughter.
    "I know nothing," he said.
    Davies said the newspaper's report "should be treated with caution."
    The IAAF has said Semenya probably would keep her medal because the case was not related to a doping matter.
    "Our legal advice is that, if she proves to have an advantage because of the male hormones, then it will be extremely difficult to strip the medal off her, since she has not cheated," Davies wrote to the AP. "She was naturally made that way, and she was entered in Berlin by her team and accepted by the IAAF. But let's wait and see once we have the final decision."
    Leonard Chuene, the president of Athletics South Africa, told the AP that all he has heard from the IAAF is that the test results will be available in November.
    "The results are not in the country yet, so we cannot comment on anything," Chuene said.
    South African sports minister Makhenkesi Stofile said he has no doubts about Semenya's gender. "She's a woman," Stofile said. "She remains our heroine. We must protect her."
    http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/10051660/Report:-Semenya-has-male,-female-sex-organs
    *************************************
    Since I'm not able to post this in a Current Events/World News/Important News or anything else that would qualify...I decided to put it here.

    The decision will make HISTORY 4 sure.
    So what do you all think...how do they decide whether or not to allow her to run in a women's track & field event and should she get to keep the medals that she's already won :confused:
     
  2. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    It is generally accepted that male hormones are an advantage in athletic endeavors. This acceptance is apparent inasmuch as males and females do not compete together. Therefore, it is unfair for a hermaphrodite to compete against women. The medals should be awarded to the women who came in behind him/her. It would seem logical for a hermaphrodite (who is producing male hormones) to compete against men rather than women.
     
  3. ASPCA4EVER

    ASPCA4EVER New Member

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    Genetically speaking she was raised in this South African community as a girl...given that this is a rare occurrence and that the South African area isn't filled with competing world renown medical technology and research centers...how is a human to know that they aren't what they appear to be.

    This isn't going to be easy to decide and it will make historic precedence once the IAAF reach a decision...if I live long enough to see the results?
     
  4. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    South Africa is a modern country. I am sure most of their citizens would take offense at being considered back wards bushmen. Note: Their technology, unlike most of the world's countries, has managed to produce an atomic bomb. That aside, she/he may have not understood what a hermaphrodite is, but their coaches, team doctors should have suspected given that his/her appearance led most spectators to suspect all was not as it might be.
     
  5. ASPCA4EVER

    ASPCA4EVER New Member

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    Your ability to take what I said and editing in the SWIPE about backwards BUSHMEN is a considerable thoughtless remark from you...something I haven't seen from you before...INTERESTING ;)

    Since the genitalia that is in question remains inside her body then it wouldn't be something that would be visually seen by the entire list of physicians and the athlete themselves.

    Was this an intentional misrepresentation {as you have alluded too} or just with the fact that we humans are becoming taller and larger with each generation and women who are extremely fit look more 'manly' then the curvy female body type of the 'PLAYBOY' photo images depict.

    It will be interesting to see how the 'legal/World of Athletic Competition handle this one!!!
     
  6. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    "Genetically speaking"??? Did you mean: When it comes to gender she was raised ...as a girl? Of course, also, how she/he was raised has nothing to do with which hormones are prominent in its body. I do not use "she", inasmuch as gender is the dispute.

    This would appear to be a male rather than female...other than a vigina, if one exists, there seems to be no good argument that this is a female.
    South Africa is not an area, it is a country. The person is a citizen of South Africa. Also, as I posted previously, South Africa is "...filled with competing world renown medical technology and research centers...",evidenced by having performed the worlds very first heart transplant.

    However, considering that I consider sport competitions to be of little practical utility to mankind's advance, I do not have a dog in this fight. Nevertheless, those women who competed in those events might have some legitimate complaints.
     
  7. TruthAboveAll

    TruthAboveAll Active Member

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    I've not seen anything indicating that she did anything wrong or underhanded to compete and win. Unless there is evidence she knew of her unfair advantage in competition, she should be allowed to keep all awards from past competitions as is.

    This is not the first time that a unique situation has arose in sports that must be dealt with. Often, there is never a clear winner. But in the spirit of fairness, there doesn't necessarily have to be a loser, either. I would hope that the women she has beaten to date would understand there was no complicity on her part, and let the past be.
     
  8. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    Edit your post above, replace "she" with "he" and "her" with "him". As I see it, that is the point, it was a man competing in a woman's competition (Regardless if the subject was aware of the fact that he was not female or not.). He still may not know that he is a male...should he still be allowed to compete in female competitions?


    Holy hermaphrodite Batman! This is a male.
     
  9. TruthAboveAll

    TruthAboveAll Active Member

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    No, I won't edit it based merely on physical, biological evidence. In this case, which is an extreme oddity and one which is totally unique, with the given circumstances, she grew up as a girl, she was female to the best of anyone's knowledge and in spite of her hormonal and physical makeup lived her life and competed as one.

    Your opinion does not make her less a female or more a male. IF it is found by solid evidence that her genetic makeup was known, and that she knowingly used it to her competitive advantage, then that is a different story. IF that is proven the case, HE should be stripped of all medals deceitfully won, all records striken, and disqualified after the fact. The critical issue is INDEED whether "the subject" was aware of it or not.

    From this point on, I can only hope that she is really a decent human being, and will understand and support the fact that her physiology and unique makeup give her an advantage that is unfair and can therefore not be allowed to compete in future events against women.
     
  10. ASPCA4EVER

    ASPCA4EVER New Member

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    http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/10089346/Track-chief-sorry-for-lying-about-Semenya-test

    PRETORIA, South Africa (AP) - South Africa's top track official apologized Saturday for denying knowledge of gender tests done on champion runner Caster Semenya in South Africa, saying he lied to protect the athlete's privacy.

    Athletics South Africa president Leonard Chuene told reporters that his constant denials of the tests were an "error of judgment" and that he never meant to "deceive" the public.

    South African officials have repeatedly said tests were done on the 18-year-old runner only abroad, not in South Africa.
    "I can no longer stand before you and say that I am not aware of gender tests conducted on Caster Semenya," Chuene said. "I felt that at the time I was acting in the best interests of Caster Semenya as a person. I believed at the time my consistent denials would help protect her."
    Semenya won the 800-meter race at the world championships in Berlin in 1 minute, 55.45 seconds to finish 2.45 seconds ahead of her closest competitor on Aug. 19. It was the fastest time in the world this year.
    The International Association of Athletics Federations ordered tests done on the runner in Berlin, saying questions had been raised about her muscular physique, running style and recent stunning improvement in times.
    It has refused to confirm or deny Australian media reports that Semenya has both male and female characteristics, saying it is reviewing test results and will issue a decision in November on whether the athlete will be allowed to continue to compete in women's events.
    Chuene said tests had been done at a Pretoria hospital on Aug. 7 at the behest of the IAAF, adding that it was unclear whether Semenya was informed of the nature of the examinations.
    Chuene said that despite medical advice and a request from the IAAF, he refused to withdraw Semenya from the race because there were no results yet from the tests.
    "I was not going to stop her talent because of rumors," he said. "On what basis should I have withdrawn her? My only crime committed was to take a decision that she must run, and she won."
    Chuene accused the IAAF, who announced the day of the 800 finals that tests had been ordered, of violating her rights and privacy.
    "The IAAF publicly revealed her name. The IAAF betrayed her. The IAAF has a lot to answer for," he said.
    Chuene is returning to the IAAF board after he resigned over the handling of the matter, but Saturday's news conference is unlikely to ease tensions between the ASA and the international body.
    The IAAF has said Semenya probably would keep her medal because she is not accused of cheating by trying to mask her sex.
    On Saturday, Chuene repeated his claims that he saw no reason for Semenya to be tested and said he would not accept the outcome of results.
    He said the ASA was not in possession of any test results and that he could not confirm media reports about her gender. Semenya, who has dropped out of sight, grew up in a poor village in the north of the country. Her impressive performances in meets earlier this year caught the attention of athletic officials.

    ***********************************
    Ok, here's the update and it would appear that there was some collusion on the South African Officials part...and that's pretty sad {not uncommon, but sad} now Caster is in hiding and probably feeling pretty bad. JEEZ LOUISE WHAT A TOTAL CLUSTER THIS HAS TURNED OUT TO BE :mad:
     
  11. TruthAboveAll

    TruthAboveAll Active Member

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    ASPCA, I'm thinking that you and I are pretty much on the same page with this. It appears that while some under-handed chicanery was occurring, it's very possible, even probable, that Caster knew nothing of the whole thing. Or at least didn't any where near comprehend the full ramifications.

    This is a very unusual situation, yet not uncommon in the point of a scheming official victimizing an innocent for his/her own gain. If things do indeed turn out as they're shaping up at this point, perhaps Chuene should be totally banned from anything to do with sports, or anything where he can have any potential of abuse of power.
     
  12. ASPCA4EVER

    ASPCA4EVER New Member

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    Despite what some on here have 'THOUGHT' about the locality that Caster has/was raised in...she comes from a very, very impoverished area and that in itself can be the motivation/pressure from immediate family needs, for many a poor athlete and a trainer with $$$$ glazing his worldly view. I feel an emotional heart tug for this young lady...confused by nature and abused by the world for something that she didn't ASK FOR!!! GOOD GRIEF and now the entire world gets to weigh in on her life and what should be done about 'HER'...no, no pressure there :rolleyes:
     
  13. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    My opinion does not make her less female; her testes and hormones do. "He" is not female at all. And again, "genetic makeup", has nothing to do with "biological makeup".
    Her physiology is not unique. There have been other hermaphrodites that have had internal testes also.
    Is I see it, he is a male and because he was raised as a female, or did not seek to deceive is immaterial.
    With "huge amounts of testostrone..." I suspect that he has to shave, may be attracted to females. Which begs the question: Which locker room should he be using?
     
  14. ASPCA4EVER

    ASPCA4EVER New Member

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    Interesting that the simple things like my correct female anatomy {and they only visual people have is at the time of my birth} my crotch area was what the doctors had a visual on and proclaimed "you have a baby girl"...hence I was raised a girl!!! HTH is that different for Caster and her family, when she was delivered and handed over to the mother, the doctor scanned her female anatomy and proclaimed her a baby girl and that was all they knew...the testes were not out of the body but within the body...for all intent and purposes she was born a female the testes could well have been a 'non functioning freak of nature' and not have played any part in her hormonal development at all.

    I'm just not following your BLACK is BLACK and WHITE is WHITE on this issue. NO ONE KNEW SHE CAME WITH EXTRA PARTS WHILE SHE WAS GROWING UP!!! The doctors didn't say here is your baby girl BTW she may or may not be gender specific; we'll just have to wait and see which way she/he develops!!!
    And these little children knew right at birth...I don't think so!!!
    Well, I for one disagree on that issue...she didn't know about the testes until she was going through all of the requirements for the International Track & Field process {at least that is my understanding of this entire fiasco}
    Your naive about that facial hair being the determining factor for the 'TRUTH TEST'...there are certain race specific factors that do not have facial hair and there are certain race specific factors that have loads of facial hair. My son has many generations of Native American on both sides of his ancestor linage and he can grow a great goatee but not a beard...he has not hair on his cheeks and jawbone area...while my Italian girl friend has more hair on her face then my son ever will have. So that can't the the standard/bar by which you determine male/female gender specific appearance...NO, NO, NO. You be wrong on that POINT ;)
     
  15. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    We won't get into the baritone voice.
     
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