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Why does Israel do what it does?

Discussion in 'World Politics' started by Kelly, May 10, 2007.

  1. Kelly

    Kelly New Member

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    I'm new to this forum, but these threads are awesome. I'm pretty educated about the Israel/Palestine Conflict, but I'd like to know:
    1. Why are the Israelis doing the same thing to the Palestinians that happened to Jews in the Holocaust?
    2. Why is it considered anti-semitic to criticize Israel for the blatant genocide it is committing?
    3. How has the Israeli lobby effort been so successful, to the point that the United States government supports a rogue nation (by definition, Israel IS a rogue nation)?
    4. Why does Israel only take, take, take, and give nothing back to the U.S.?
    5. Why would the U.S. support a theocracy, considering the American Constitutional endorsement of Lockian Liberalism (separation of church and state)? Yes, Israel IS a theocracy. They might have the Knesset, etc., but Judaism obviously rules the day.
    6. Why would Israel even have an alliance (even a take-only relationship) with the United States? Any you who study the Bible or Torah will know that the Jews got exiled from the Holy Land for making alliance with foreign entities (Israel [the North] had heavy ties with Tyre and Aram and Assyria, while Judah [the South] developed strong ties with the Assyrians in order to take Israel back from under its gentile influences) I'm not a 'walking Bible,' but I can dig up citations about the Second Exile if any of you challenge what I just mentioned about the Jews and foreign alliances in the Bible/Torah.
    Thanks in advance for enlightening me!!!
     
  2. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    Which death camps are the "palestinians" being sent to to be gassed and incenerated?

    genocide - the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

    Describe to me how they are deliberately and systematically exterminating palestinians. If you believe retaliation for attacks constitutes genocide, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the tactics of the nazis?

    By definition, a rogue nation is a nation that does not respect other states in its international actions. Which other states does israel want to see wiped fropm the face of the earth? Which other states does israel refuse to accept the legitimacy of?

    Defending oneself from the blatant hostility of one's neighbors is necessary. Especially when one's neighbors want to wipe one from the face of the earth.


    Have we asked them for anything?


    There is no American constitutional separation of church and state.


    In one sentence you condemn the US for supporting a state based on a religion claiming a separation of church and state and in the next, you want the US to administer foriegn policy based on the Torah? Make up your mind.

    Clearly your postion is based on little more than sarcasm and exageration. Try asking some serious questions.
     
  3. USMC the Almighty

    USMC the Almighty New Member

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    Because they are responding to the rockets landing in the living rooms of their civilians.

    Well I don't understand the labelling any anti-Israeli sentiment as anti-Semitic, but I don't buy into your theory that they're comitting "blatant genocide".

    Because they provide the U.S. with security. Not only are they a shock absorber for all anti-West action in the Arab World, but they also have a history of doing the dirty work for the U.S. (for instance -- their raid on Saddam's nuclear reactor in the early 80s) -- the stuff we can't do because it would get us in trouble politically.

    They do give us stuff: security. See above. If the entire Middle East wasn't so focused with "liquidating the Zionist presence" (their words, not mine) then all their hatred would be targeted at the U.S. That's why it's worth supporting Israel.

    I'm not going to argue that Israel's not governed, at least in part, by religion. They have the Star of David on their flag for crying out loud. However, they are the only functioning democracy in the Middle East in terms of government/elections, etc.

    Secondly, you're handle on Lockean philosophy is a bit shakey. For more, check out my remarks in the separation of church and state thread. Essentially, Locke/Jefferson argued that the people are inherently granted certain inalienable rights by their Creator (i.e. NOT the government). This means that each individual is the sovereign and ultimately, it rules the government, not the otherway around. This is important because it insures that the gov't is eternally subservient to the citizens and thus, it cannot abridge these inalienable rights.

    The presence of Jefferson's "Creator" is important because it serves as a reminder of where people get their inalienable rights from.

    I can't answer this from a religious perspective, but economically, we are a massive asset to Israel.
     
  4. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

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  5. Truth-Bringer

    Truth-Bringer New Member

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    Because it can give nothing. It's a totally one-sided alliance.

    Actually, Zionism rules the day. Technically, they're not a theocracy, but they did want that land due to religious reasons. They can deny it all they like, but THAT PARTICULAR LAND was a demand of the Zionists.

    The question is, why would anyone have an alliance with Israel, since Israel couldn't send troops to help if we were invaded. Israel is surrounded by enemies and couldn't risk sending troops for fear of attack. Again, it's a totally one-sided alliance.

    As for my take on the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, let's look at the creation of the state of Israel. On the following link you'll see a brief overview of the origin of the state of Israel and also the fact that Arabs there were not happy with the United Nation's partition plan and voted to reject it.

    http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_un_role.php

    Also, if you'll note the populations at the time, the Arabs were a clear majority. The majority isn't always right, but common sense will tell you that challenging the majority will result in conflict whether they are right or wrong. To believe that the Jews would have a peaceful welcome in Palestine was wishful thinking on the part of the U.N. This does not justify violent actions on the part of the Arabs, but again, the laws of cause and effect cannot be ignored. The Arabs are unequivocally wrong to pursue violence as a means of retaliation, but it is clear that their rights were violated first.

    In the late 40's, the Palestinian people were overruled and their wishes were ignored by the U.N. To put oneself in their shoes, did the citizens in Palestine vote to elect any of the U.N. leaders who made this decision? Do you believe that a group such as the U.N. or any other political group has the right to make decisions that affect the lives of people if these same people are not allowed to vote them into (or out of) representative positions? Do you believe this is a fair way to decide issues? And if so, would you allow another political body which you or no one else in the U.S. voted for to come in and forcibly relocate you or force you to share land when it was against your desire to do so? I think a lot of people wouldn't like this. I know I wouldn't. I would feel like my rights had been violated.

    The Palestinians warned the world that they would resist with violence if the U.N. plan was enacted, and that is exactly what they did. Were they morally wrong in choosing to initiate violence? Absolutely. However, were the Jewish people, more specifically the Zionists, wrong to pursue the creation of a state in an area of people who did not desire the presence of such a state, who voted against it, and who had it forced upon them by a political body they did not elect? I definitely think so, and this becomes the cause. For the Zionists to pursue such a plan and enter an area like this, surrounded by the followers of a religion of violence like Islam, just to in essence "reclaim" land that was allegedly granted to them by God is either incredibly arrogant or incredibly short-sighted.

    The real reason the Arabs resisted was not because of hatred of the Jews, but because they saw the encroachment as a repeat of the creation of the Crusader states. Castles built by Europeans in the holy land still stand as daily reminders of the holocaust that demolished an early, prosperous Islamic civilization. Some cultures have very long memories (unlike the short attention span of Americans). Two of the three main divisions of the PLO are named after battles fought during the Crusades. What the Jewish people have really done is blunder into a thousand year war between the Christian West and the Islamic world, and now the Muslims are focused on them.
     
  6. USMC the Almighty

    USMC the Almighty New Member

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    My main complaint w/ the Palestinians is that they're always accepting yesterday's treaty. It's the same story over and over again.

    Arabs invade Israel. Get piss beating out of them. Cry that Israel's taking land and demand to return to pre-war state. New generations of Arabs attack Israel....
     
  7. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    Poor little Israel. It never does anything to deserve this critisism. Ya, right. It's the same story over and over again. And if you critisize Israel, someone is sure to trot out the holocast as if, somehow - just because Isreal doesn't treat the Palestinians as badly as the holocast, then any bad treatment short of that is A-Okay because it's not as bad as the holocast right?
     
  8. palerider

    palerider Well-Known Member

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    The "palestinians" are where they are, living how the do by choice, not because they were rounded up and put in slums. There are plenty of arabs living normal lives in israel and they have far more freedom than they would have in their own countries. The "palestinians" are where they are because they would rather live like animals than live with jews...and the jordanians won't let them on the land that is rightfully their country.
     
  9. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

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  10. vyo476

    vyo476 Active Member

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    Maybe "freedom" isn't exactly what they want. Maybe they want a government that adheres to their own principles. Maybe they choose to live as they do because it is the only way to live in their home without endorsing a government that runs opposite to what they believe.

    There is no partition plan and no halfway point that'll settle this. There are too many differences between what the Palestinians want and what the Israelis want.
     
  11. Coyote

    Coyote Active Member

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    The Palestinians can not all live in Israel - they have no "right of return". I do not think they are living where they live by choice. Isreal does not want them. Neither does Jordan though Jordan took in many previously. No one does. They just want their land. Speaking of which you totally bypass the issue of why exactly all that occupied territory "belongs" to Israel?

    So what are you talking about?
     
  12. Dave

    Dave New Member

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    They acquired the territory in war. Thats the way the world has worked since the beginning of time. Regardless of who provoked who, or who fired the first shot, it really doesn't matter. When the war was over, Israel had the land, fair and square.
     
  13. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

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    and they've been paying for it ever since.

    as it stands, as long as they are there, the fighting will continue. And perhaps the most ironic thing, is that eventually Israel will lose anyways. The arab birthrate will eventually win it.

    So really, this is all just a waste of life. In the end, The Israeli's will be gone, and the Arabs and Persians will still be there, as its always been. Every power thats been their has eventually left. War is just Demographics.
     
  14. Castle

    Castle New Member

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    I could write a book about this subject but it would fall on deaf ears so whats the point.
    Instead I'll quote a few passages from the Hamas Charter.
    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it"
    "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

    NUFF SAID!

    -Castle
     
  15. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

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    Jeez, the Israeli's have been working trying to kill each and every last Pal since they invaded. The problem is that they are just about as good at Counter Insurgency warfare as we are. Meaning terrible.

    I suppose the most Ironic thing, is that it was the Israeli secret services that created Hamas in the first place, as a "counterweight" to the quasi-commie PLO. Hamas was going to be the dumb Islamic faction that would harass the PLO into ineffectiveness, as if the PLO ever needed any help getting there. Well, it worked a little too well. Two intifadas and one Hamas leadership later, the Israelis would give anything to have a pitiful coward like Arafat back in charge, instead of these crazy Hamas guys with 17 children each and a bad case of martyr-envy.
     
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