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Why I think Bush if right on Immigration

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by baldar, Jun 4, 2007.

  1. baldar

    baldar New Member

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    There has been a great deal of posting in regard to immigration, and how immigration should be dealt with, or more to the point, the sticking point of illegal immigration into the United States. What are its real impacts? How should we react to them? What is the real issue involved? How have we dealt with them? All of these issues seem to cross party lines. People who hate Bush, of course are afraid to give him credit for an idea that he has put forward. Those who are for Bush, pummel him for his immigration idea. So what do we do?

    Well lets look at the issues: I have read some works by someone in the Manhattan Institute and appreciated the work “Reinventing the melting pot: The New Immigrants and What it Means to Be American”.

    What I find interesting is the congruence between two opposite ends of the poles. Bush and Edward Kennedy are convinced that far from a threat, the present issue, or threat of crisis, is really a positive opportunity. Immigrants, even illegal immigrants bring a vitality to the US that cannot be denied (as I will explain later). The force of immigrants (legal and illegal) are a power that can be harnessed for a stronger US.

    The Bureau of Labor statistics states the US economy is expected to create 56 million new jobs, half of which will require no more than a high school education. More than 75 million baby boomers will be retiring in that same period. Native born fertility rates are dropping simultaneously, while native born workers with their declining numbers are becoming more educated. Lets put this in perspective as far as education goes. In 1960 half of all native born men dropped out of high school to seek unskilled labour. Today it is 10%.

    So what do we have?

    A rapidly declining birthrate population.
    A growing economy of which 50% is unskilled labour
    A rapidly growing retirement rate of baby boomers
    Most of the native born population (which will nowhere near fill the gap) will be educated (and thus not work as unskilled labour).

    The shortage in unskilled labour is estimated to run in the hundreds of thousands of workers “per year”. For instance, construction workers produced 185,000 jobs annually. Workers earn between 30K and 50K a year. Employers in masonry and dry walling cannot find enough young Americans to do the work (remember we are at 4.5% unemployment).

    Restaurants are in worse shape. Their field employs 12.5 million workers, the nations largest private sector employment. Their demand is expected to grow at a rate of 15% between 2005 and 2006. Native born work force (teenagers/adults between 16 to 24 years old) will not expand at all, and overall native born workforce will only expand 10%. So the question is, are older Americans willing to bus tables and flip hamburgers? Some might be, but odds are that the majority will not.

    Mexico to the South of us does have unskilled labour to spare. For instance the move from subsistence agriculture to economies that require investment capital means more labour will be free’d up, couple that with the failure of Mexico to provide jobs for its population is also an issue. Even if Mexico would suddenly cease its corruption and economic errors and become a first world country tomorrow, the US would still have a large job shortage.

    Illegal immigrants and immigrants talk to their families at home. They tell the the job market is bad in Detroit, but Las Vegas is strong, or the rebuilding in New Orleans is where the jobs are. So you have a relatively efficient movement of economic units directly to where they are most needed. If you are going to be unemployed, it is better to be unemployed in Mexico than Chicago or New York. Even legal immigrants who account for 2/3’s of the total immigrant flux, are not eligible for welfare benefits.

    Labour force participation of foreign born men is higher than native born. Illegal immigrant men have the highest job percentage, roughly 94%. Immigrants are less likely than natives to be unemployed.

    Cui bono?

    Cui bono? Who benefits? Lets look at two of the arguments against the present plan.

    Illegal immigrants lower American wages.
    Only employers benefit from illegal immigrants.

    If the answer were yes (and I once thought it was) then I would be against any kind of change. But lets look at those questions at hand more forcefully. So what is the fiscal effect?

    Whether immigrants consume more in government benefits than they contribute in taxes, can be calculated after a measure. Consder that they pay as much as the comparable poor and unskilled. They pay sales and property taxes, just as native or legally born residents to. Thus contributing equally for schooling.
     
  2. Justinian

    Justinian New Member

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    You must be joking

    You're forgetting that they're Mexicans. It's none of their damn business where we need labor but ours. And they can only talk that way because it's so damn easy to get into America and our security is so pathetic. It's despicable they could talk like that like they're really concearned with America. They're not. They're out for themselves. They're running amok around our country out of check like the foreign invaders they are taking advantage of our services and hospitality. We don't need their help for labor distribution, we can fix that problem on our own. This whole idea that we need help from any country is a bunch of crap. I know it is because I've researched this topic more than any other lately by far and it is my number one issue of concearn. I wish my books were on the computer so I could pull up statistics. First of all, we never had a labor shortage. The only time America EVER had a labor shortage was a brief period during the second World War. All the rest is a lie for political or financial greed. And it's completely true that they cost America money and you'd be a fool to think other wise. You think because he pays sales tax, that makes it okay that he doesn't pay income?? The Average illegal costs America $50,000 dollars their entire stay here. That's the money they make minus the sevices they use. These people are presumable to a fix of a problem that never existed that would have failed if it did. You should read some books on just how bad this is with the Goddamn spikks and how much they REALLY are hurting this country and how much this country is threatened by South American interests. And lets not even get into the fact they come here and send money out of our country they never deserved to earn. Because of BS like this, the white race today is in danger because of bad government policy and systematic anti-national brainwashing.
     
  3. drippinhun

    drippinhun New Member

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    Reagan set the example that if you sneak into this country illegally and just wait, eventually you will be allowed to stay. Well twenty some years later Bush is trying to solidify instead of rectifying that. If the undocumented get away with this, we may as well just give up any expectations of controlling our borders.
     
  4. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    Justinian, in my short time here that is the most blatantly racist post I have come across. To target one group of illegal immigrants over other illegal immigrants shows some serious issues in your head. Would it make a difference to you if they were white Canadians spilling down from the north?
    Do you think your lilly white behind belongs here more than they do simply because you were born here? BS! The land this country was founded on was stolen by white men from native Americans. NEVER FORGET IT!
    All that being said, I think this is another example of putting ones proverbial finger in the dike to try to solve a problem that has grown completely out of control. But the focus should not be solely on one group of illegals, but on them entirely. Whether they be hispanic or asian or african, or european...or martian, it doesnt matter. Either you were born here, or you go through the correct immigration guidelines set in place, or we send you home unless there is good reason such as political asylum.
     
  5. Justinian

    Justinian New Member

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    HA

    Not stolen. Fought over. You're not acquainted with the truth.
     
  6. baldar

    baldar New Member

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    I don't believe the average illegal costs America 50K, care to let me know where you get those numbers?

    Frankly I don't have much use for racists. They aren't logical, they aren't bright, and they tend to live in trailers while spawning with their first cousins.

    I am well read, I love America and I always look for what is best for the nation, in my view. Not what is best for my race, which is a joke.
     
  7. baldar

    baldar New Member

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    It was stolen, even Lincoln thought so. Thats good enough for me.
     
  8. Justinian

    Justinian New Member

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    uhuh

    It was a study done by The Center for Immigration Studies in 2001 from the book "Unguarded Gates" Pg. 130. The actual number is estimated at $55,200 but numbers, facts, and common sense don't matter right pinhead? As for your swipe at racists, read a book and look at statistics and then come back and tell me being racist is wrong and unwise. Also, when you say racist, you have to put it into the context. It becomes much clearer when you use the scenario the person is talking about instead of just hating "racists" as a meaningless principle.
     
  9. Abraxis Axis

    Abraxis Axis New Member

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    I keep trying to tell you all..................theyre going to ELIMINATE the borders and form the North American union we will all be required to carry "national" ID cards and we will be allowed to freely move about within the external borders of the North American union

    you all are to busy focusing on the parts they wany you to....look at the big picture ask yourself why havent they sealed the borders and illegal immigration? the answer is plain as the nose on yer face!!!
     
  10. Justinian

    Justinian New Member

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    What

    What? And what evidence do you have to substantiate this claim?
     
  11. Justinian

    Justinian New Member

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    Yeah

    And I guess you also believe That all men are created equal too, right? I'm not a big fan of Lincoln but then again we'll never know how he would have been really remembered. And because you believe this land is 'stolen' then you must believe this land is not ours. It's borderline treason to believe such a rediculous idea and you won't convince anyone of it. America was created by purchase and conquest. You don't even know your own heroic origin, do you? If we listened to people like you, we'd still be sitting in Europe buying off Muslim armies. Thank God people thought more like me with common sense than like people like you.
     
  12. baldar

    baldar New Member

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    I believe the land was stolen. But I also believe the US belongs to the US. I don't sugar coat the history and wrap it in myths. I look at it for what it is in a hobbesian world.

    The only way you can be treasonous to the US is to attempt to create a myth rather than work with the truth. I love the US and think it is the best nation in the world, but I will not lie about it or push forward myths. I think we cheapen our history and the uniqueness of our nation when we do so.

    If you had listened to people like me, you would have known that I would care very little about what the world in general thinks and look to what is best for the US, regardless of racist people who happen to be infesting some nearby trailer park.
     
  13. baldar

    baldar New Member

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    The word spikk speaks wonders of your ability (or lack thereof) to think outside the plastic pink flamingos in your front yard.

    As to "Unguarded gates" I would have to know exactly how the numbers were achieved since I have seen numbers all over the board.
     
  14. Bunz

    Bunz New Member

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    Justinian, I will still remind you as has Baldar that your comments are blatantly racist and I wonder how you would feel if it was white Canadians spilling across the border, come on the record and answer that question for me.
    As for America being stolen...yeah it was. You may make yourself feel good sitting in the trailer park by thinking it was purchased, but lets take a look at the Lousiana purchase for instance, it was purchased from the French, who had no rightful ownership of the land in question as it had been settled millenia before by numerous Native American tribes.
    Lets look at Alaska, my home state. In the 1850s the Russians showed up and exploited the Native inhabiting the area and the animal resources that exsisted through the fur trade. Then in 1867 Sec. State Seward "purchased" Alaska from the Russians for the US. After becoming a terroritory and different designations before statehood, Alaska became a state in 1959. The issue of Native lands had not been dealt with, and the US government knew how terrible the reservation system was/is in the lower 48 so until 1971 and the Alaska Native Land Claim Settlement Act the details were sorted out in order to avoid continuing hassle from militant Natives and also in the courtroom over the construction of the Trans-Alaska Pipeline which went through Native owned lands. While the deal struck at the time was much better than the genuine treachery that happened in the lower 48 the local Natives here were strong armed into it through mildly veiled threats of forcing Natives onto a reservation system. There is no question that the historically native lands have been taken, through violence, coercion, deception and starvation. While I am proud to be a Native American, I will never forget the past injustices that have taken place and I hope you wouldnt either.
     
  15. Castle

    Castle New Member

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    I'm curious as to what "unskilled" labor really means. I have come to believe that it means whatever an employer wishes it to mean. Years ago, I worked as an aircraft fueler at the Fort Lauderdale International airport. Two weeks of classroom training was required and another two weeks of on the job training before you pumped your first gallon of jet fuel. Then there was fire safety training required by the Fire Marshall and individual airline procedure training. You had to know how to fuel aircraft without operational gauges and understand cockpit controls for transferring fuel between tanks. This was a good paying job that demanded what was considered "skilled" labor.

    Now, many fueling companies are taking a different approach. The pay is insulting and the expectations are low at best. The goal is quantity not quality. Aircraft fuelers are not considered skilled labor anymore and rightfully so because they are not. Most of the ranks are filled with Haitians, Jamaicans and Mexicans who can do little more than fill up your car but hey, it's cheap labor that Americans aren't interested in right?. Airport authorities complain about this as do the airlines but it's all about saving a buck.

    I have no issues with the immigrants that fill these jobs but I do take issue with the employers that create this type of environment and then blame us for not taking a minimum wage "unskilled" job that used to require a lot of skill. I felt a lot better about flying 20 years ago than I do now because I know how they are cutting corners.

    -Castle
     
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