Why New Orleans?

[Libsmasher]

It would take too much time and too much effort to explain the dynamics of New Orleans, but suffice it to say that over 90% of the employment in the New Orleans area in in some way connected to the shipping industry.

The problem isn't that New Orleans is below sea level, the problem is that even those areas that aren't below sea level are still surrounded by levees which either hold out the Gulf of Mexico, or hold in the Mississippi River, the level of which is, in some places, as much as 10 feet ABOVE the land on either side of the levee walls that contain it!

If either of the River levees were to fail almost anywhere between Waggaman and English Turn, even those areas that are well above sea level, like the Vieux Carre (that's the French Quarter to you) would be under several meters of water until the water level fell to it's natural level, which could take MONTHS, and the River would be closed to navigation during that entire time.

Without being up on the micro-details, I'm sure the problems to establish a vastly scoped back new orleans are not unsolveable by a nation who put a man on the moon. A new city can be created safely up river, say 50 miles, and workers brought in my train each day. Or the port can be moved up the mississipi river.

 

[Sihouette]

Dear Army Corps of Engineers...

Might I suggest a new design for your retaining walls? How about a bevelled back like dams have?

Yes, the flat part faces the water and the back should be burmed concrete/dense substrate back at least eight feet.

Oh, and maybe raise the height and spread a bit. BigOil has big plans to keep greenhouse gases burning strong for at least another 50 years.

We'll be talking about category 9 hurricanes by then...

We'll have to rename New Orleans "Venice" by then.. Anyone for gondola futures?

 

[Federal Farmer]

Without being up on the micro-details, I'm sure the problems to establish a vastly scoped back new orleans are not unsolveable by a nation who put a man on the moon. A new city can be created safely up river, say 50 miles, and workers brought in my train each day. Or the port can be moved up the mississipi river.

Lib, there is no other place to put the port. Take some time and study this map of the New Orleans area, and you'll quickly discover why moving things isn't as easy as it would seem, and that's completely ignoring the fact that doing what you suggest would cost more than the entire federal budget for at least 5 years. Oh, and BTW, the nearest other place that the port could be placed is Baton Rouge, and it's over 100 miles up river.

Now, that's not to say that abandoning the parts of New Orleans that are especially subject to flooding wouldn't be a good idea, but that has been proposed several times in the past, and rejected every time. Eventually something is going to have to be done though, because it's estimated that in the next 100 years, lacking a concerted conservation effort, New Orleans will be IN the Gulf of Mexico, and I'm not talking about "global warming" either. The fact is that the entire area is slowly creeping south, and the bayou's and swamps are eroding faster than they can replentish themselves, because the Mississippi River no longer floods St. Bernard, Plaquemines, southern Jefferson, Lafourche and Terrebonne Parishes every year. The biggest problem with opening up the levee walls and allowing the River to flood those areas is, discounting the fact that people now live in those old flood plains, the disruption of river traffic. It's a VERY complex problem that's been over 150 years in the making, and it's not going to be solved overnight, or for that matter, even in a couple of decades.

 

[Federal Farmer]

Dear Army Corps of Engineers...

Dear Sihouette,

We're very glad to see that your Elementary School project was in the area of Engineering, and that you've taken an interest in trying to help us to save New Orleans.

US Army Corps of Engineers

 

[BigRob]

Dear Army Corps of Engineers...

Might I suggest a new design for your retaining walls? How about a bevelled back like dams have?

Yes, the flat part faces the water and the back should be burmed concrete/dense substrate back at least eight feet.

Oh, and maybe raise the height and spread a bit. BigOil has big plans to keep greenhouse gases burning strong for at least another 50 years.

We'll be talking about category 9 hurricanes by then...

We'll have to rename New Orleans "Venice" by then.. Anyone for gondola futures?

Problem 1 for your picture is that is not how the levee actually operates. Underground the system is more complex and is able to withstand the the pressure that way.

 

[Sihouette]

Of course I was being simplistic. But don't you think a little reinforcement might be called for? Those walls took a pounding and this was only a cat 4 hurricane. Time it with an abnormally high tide and a cat 5, and there could be real problems...again..

 

[BigRob]

Of course I was being simplistic. But don't you think a little reinforcement might be called for? Those walls took a pounding and this was only a cat 4 hurricane. Time it with an abnormally high tide and a cat 5, and there could be real problems...again..

Actually this was a Category 2 hurricane when it hit New Orleans. It made landfall only very briefly as a category 3.

The levees themselves cannot withstand a category 5 hurricane, and the money it would take to do that is outrageous. Given that category 5 hurricanes really never ever hit, it does not really make much sense. (Remember that Katrina was only a category 3 upon landfall)

 

[Sihouette]

These hurricanes....they seem to be coming with more and more frequency.

Wonder what that's from?

 

[BigRob]

These hurricanes....they seem to be coming with more and more frequency.

Wonder what that's from?

Non-man induced warming of the world

 

[Federal Farmer]

Actually this was a Category 2 hurricane when it hit New Orleans. It made landfall only very briefly as a category 3.

The levees themselves cannot withstand a category 5 hurricane, and the money it would take to do that is outrageous. Given that category 5 hurricanes really never ever hit, it does not really make much sense. (Remember that Katrina was only a category 3 upon landfall)

You're correct about Katrina and the levees BigRob, but, and I hate to do this to you, you're wrong about Cat 5's never hitting. I went through Camille in '69, and it was most certainly a Cat 5 when it made landfall, less than 50 miles from where we were.

 

[BigRob]

You're correct about Katrina and the levees BigRob, but, and I hate to do this to you, you're wrong about Cat 5's never hitting. I went through Camille in '69, and it was most certainly a Cat 5 when it made landfall, less than 50 miles from where we were.

Yea, I was not alive for Camille, but I do recall reading about it. Thanks for pointing it out, but the issue I was raising I guess is that they are a rare thing, and to spend billions upgrading levees that may or may not even stand up to a storm of that size seems almost foolhearty in my opinion, do you agree?

 

[Libsmasher]

These hurricanes....they seem to be coming with more and more frequency.

Wonder what that's from?

Statistical clumping.

 

[Federal Farmer]

These hurricanes....they seem to be coming with more and more frequency.

Wonder what that's from?

I don't know where you got that impression, because, they're not. In fact, go back and look at the 2006 and 2007 hurricane seasons. How many were there? How many even threatened the US?

In 2006, contrary to the predictions of 17 named storms, 9 hurricanes and 5 above Catagory 3, there were only 10 named storms, 5 hurricanes, 2 of Cat 3 or higher, and Cat 1 Ernesto was the only one to make landfall in the US.

In 2007, they predicted 14 named storms, 7 hurricanes, 3 of Category 3 or higher. There were 16 named storms, 6 hurricanes, only 2 of which were catagory 3 or higher, but only Cat 1 Humberto struck the US.

 

[Federal Farmer]

Yea, I was not alive for Camille, but I do recall reading about it. Thanks for pointing it out, but the issue I was raising I guess is that they are a rare thing, and to spend billions upgrading levees that may or may not even stand up to a storm of that size seems almost foolhearty in my opinion, do you agree?

I absolutely agree, and having been through a couple of them, I thank God Almighty that they are as rare as they are. I only pointed that out in the interest of accuracy.

The fact is that when God decides to stir up a Cat 5, there's not a damned thing that man can build that will stand up against it. I don't care if you build solid reinforced concrete levees 100 ft into the ground 10 ft thick and 30 ft above the ground, when it gets hit by a 25+ ft high, 30 mile wide, 500' trough to crest storm surge moving at 40 miles an hour, well, it'll just snap it.

People have no idea what a body of sea water (at 9 lbs per gallon, that's 63 lbs per cubic foot) that big, moving that fast will do. Once you understand that E=mv^2, and then do the math to determine exactly what the energy of that wall of water is, well, all you can do is GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!

The reason that the levees in New Orleans failed during Katrina is that they were only designed to handle the "average" storm surge from a Cat 3 storm, and not the storm surge from a Cat 5 storm, and that's exactly what happened. Katrina had intensified to Cat 5 the day before she made landfall, and the only thing that saved New Orleans from TOTAL devistation was the fact that she weakened overnight, but the storm surge was still that of a Cat 5, because once that much water get's moving, it doesn't just stop, it keep moving and when it hits, it hits HARD.

 

[Libsmasher]

I just don't see why US shipping has to be held hostage to such a problematic place.