1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Discuss politics - join our community by registering for free here! HOP - the political discussion forum

Wind Energy

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Pidgey, Dec 2, 2008.

  1. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    48
  2. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    48
  3. Lagboltz

    Lagboltz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,847
    Likes Received:
    102
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hurricane alley
    I am also interested in other kinds of energy economies. I always wondered about the real total costs of wind energy, from manufacturing to installation, to power distribution; and maybe other hidden costs. The sites you quote are specifically created to be negative about wind energy. I have no doubt that the industry is overstating it.

    Your cited link, http://www.keepersoftheblueridge.com/faqs.html has this information that seems to say Denmark has not done well with wind energy:
    I was curious to read what a more objective site would have to say. So I looked in Wikipedia since it is written by committee and generally opposing views are eventually compromised. Wiki has information that contradicts the above source:

    Your source, http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/09/candour-from-beeb.html also contradicts the Denmark discussion in Wiki. Maybe the editors from eureferendum.blogspot should look at the Wiki site and haggle with the wind energy optimists there, and maybe the reality of the situation will eventually emerge.
     
  4. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Intuitively, I'd tend towards using the wind generators for pumped storage hydroelectricity. Of course, that wouldn't work in flat areas... I'm in power generation station control rooms quite a bit and, to me, they look like they'd only work well in areas with very constant winds. In iffy or varying conditions, it's pretty easy to see why you'd need them closely coupled to localities with a lot of hydroelectric power in order to balance the grid.

    Yes, it's pretty tough to get real field numbers regarding their deployment. You'd think that if they were so great power companies wouldn't be able to buy them fast enough. Maybe a "follow the money" analysis would tell us more about what's really going on. Another thing you'd imagine is that the countries that have installed more of them would have booming industrial sectors and lowering unemployment seeing as how their cost of manufacturing should be constantly decreasing due to "free energy". Just something to look into.
     
  5. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,497
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Finely someone else stating what I have been saying for more than 2 years. Kudos. Good post.

    LOL :D
     
  6. Hobo1

    Hobo1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Move around
    I too have always been curious about the true economies of wind energy. Sticking with this paragraph, and avoiding anecdotal examples, has anyone encountered a solid economic analysis of wind energy - from depreciation, to maintenance, to efficiency, etc, etc....? I have seen the wind farms in the remote areas of California and to an engineer's eye they seem very prone to mechanical failure - three large blades hanging off a relatively small generator. The stress on the mechanical parts must be enormous. I can't believe they have a life span of over 5 years without major overhaul.

    As much as we complain about the cost of electricity, most of that cost is used to distribute and maintain the electrical grid. Any machine must produce an awful lot of electricity before it pays for itself, even if the fuel costs are zero.

    As far as integrating into the electrical grid, I always assumed wind energy would be used to supply a small fraction of the total electrical generation capacity in a grid. For example, if a wind farm had the potential to generate 10% of the grid's energy supply, then the fluctuation of plus or minus 10% could be adjusted from alternative sources.

    I suppose another alternative would be to dedicate the wind energy to some use that could accommodate an interpretable, variable supply of electricity. Pumping drinking water into reservoirs is one obvious answer but I suppose industry (or agriculture) could use an interpretable source as well.

    Basically, I'd like to see a reliable, complete analysis of wind energy - and how it could fit into the existing electrical supply system.
     
  7. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I think the water's going to be so muddy due to the variables of wind itself that hard numbers can't be reliably produced. Wind farms become a terrible liability to The Grid when winds themselves get into the iffy territory. They ultimately cause horrific grid instability if you don't have a matching source that can be spun up and idled down just as fast as the wind can rise and drop. That's why you see them stopped all too often.
     
  8. BobfredXP

    BobfredXP New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  9. Plato

    Plato New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It takes a lot of space to create of lots of electricity from wind. I think hydroelectric is more feasible.
     
  10. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Technically, you wouldn't need to support the "clean" part once fabrication and installation environmental costs are tabulated, but you'd need to justify the "efficient, and cheap" part with real economics and engineering numbers in order to make a viable argument out of it. Also, the return on investment needs to be positive for the entire group, not just from one particular unit.
     
  11. Hobo1

    Hobo1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Move around
    I certainly hope you don't vote. What do you do to "think". Have you looked at any of the links? Have you done any research?

    Are you aware of the disruption that a wind farm can cause on any population that is living nearby? The "thump-thump" drives people nuts.

    Efficient means you have done a cost vs benefit analysis. You know, comparing the life cycle costs of wind energy systems compared to other energy sources. Do you think you could post that kind of analysis for me so I can share your "wisdom"? Cheap - could you define that term? Also, what do you assume to be the cost per MKWH to be considered cheap?

    God, I hate brainless pseudo-environmentalists who look at an idea and make an instant judgment if it is good or bad... "Don't bother me with the facts:mad:"
     
  12. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    48
  13. foggedinn

    foggedinn New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  14. VicSmith

    VicSmith New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Personally, I think wind energy is a dead end. It is horribly inefficient. It's a renewable source—at least it's a start.
     
  15. Pidgey

    Pidgey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,125
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well, at $1.6-3 million bucks a pop for a 4 MW installation (peak generating capacity) that's not going to be there whenever you want it... it does seem a bit on the impractical side. Of course, if the grid goes down, they go down with it.
     
Loading...

Share This Page