world population

[Dr.Who]

Okay, firstly, you are flat out wrong. the "worst case scenario" as you put it falls into 10%-14% (and this includes statistics concerning people who use condoms irregularly, eg. not every time and/or incorrectly when they do) this is still less than your 15%. Educating people on the correct use of condoms not only reduces this but also reduces the chance of HIV transmission.

' Estimated pregnancy rates during perfect use of condoms, that is for those who report using the method exactly as it should be used (correctly) and at every act of intercourse (consistently), is 3 percent at 12 months.

The most frequently cited condom effectiveness rate is for typical use, which includes perfect and imperfect use (i.e. not used at every act of intercourse, or used incorrectly). The pregnancy rate during typical use can be much higher (10-14%) than for perfect use, but this is due primarily to inconsistent and incorrect use, not to condom failure. Condom failure – the device breaking or slipping off completely during intercourse – is uncommon.' [4] --- so wouldnt this make the case for education involving condoms? I think so.

As for beads, 'With correct and consistent use each month and reliance on another form of contraceptive, the failure rate of these methods is 2 to 5 percent. With typical use, the failure rate is much higher, about 12 to 22 percent' [3]

so we are right back where we started.

The best rate for beads is about 95% and the best rate for condoms is about 97%. The worst or typical rate for beads is about 12% and the worst or typical rate we will now use will be from your stats stated as 10% - 14%.

The best and worst rates are about the same.

Yet, a poor African cannot afford the average 50 cents per act (which you stated was 123 times per year) costing a couple over $60 each and every year while the beads if they bought them would cost less than a few dollars for many years. And I suppose if she lost them she could just make a new set out of clay.

So you say that if people know how to use condoms that they will get a better rate of effectiveness. Well then they can skip using the beads and use the family planning technique which is just as effective as a condoms at over 97%. I would add that family planning is au natural and feels a whole lot better too. Family planning has the added benefit of allowing women to be in touch with their cycles and to notice if there is a medical issue so she can seek treatment and allows a woman to become pregnant more easily when she wants to. It does not stop the transmission of disease. I have nothing against condoms and think that if a person wants to avoid disease they should either avoid sex or use condoms knowing that it is not 100% effective in stopping disease.

 

[Dr.Who]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7014335.stm

'"Condoms are not sure because I know that there are two countries in Europe, they are making condoms with the virus on purpose," he alleged, refusing to name the countries.'




In Mozambique the archbishop actually said that european condom manufacturers add HIV to condoms on purpose. I'm not sure elsewhere.



Of course not, there is no lack of concern, just a lack of intelligent discourse, scientific reason, and ethical reason in the church when it comes to human sexuality. In their perfect world, people would be abstainent, this world however is one where reproduction led to the spread of humanity as we see it now, therefor their ideal world was not ideal for evolving humanity.

That would be a pretty stupid thing for an archbishop to say. I doubt the level of stupidity reaches as far into the catholic organisation as you seem to think.

 

[r0beph]

That would be a pretty stupid thing for an archbishop to say. I doubt the level of stupidity reaches as far into the catholic organisation as you seem to think.

It isn't whether the poison runs up the tree, but rather it is assumed the words flow down. The local archbishop is the head of things in his locality, what he says is taken as the word of the catholic church as sanctioned by the pope. Whether or not the church has this belief or not does not matter, the Catholics in his locality as well as those from surrounding jurisdictions will very well believe it just as if it were the pope who said it.

 

[r0beph]

so we are right back where we started.

The best rate for beads is about 95% and the best rate for condoms is about 97%. The worst or typical rate for beads is about 12% and the worst or typical rate we will now use will be from your stats stated as 10% - 14%.

The best and worst rates are about the same.

Yet, a poor African cannot afford the average 50 cents per act (which you stated was 123 times per year) costing a couple over $60 each and every year while the beads if they bought them would cost less than a few dollars for many years. And I suppose if she lost them she could just make a new set out of clay.

So you say that if people know how to use condoms that they will get a better rate of effectiveness. Well then they can skip using the beads and use the family planning technique which is just as effective as a condoms at over 97%. I would add that family planning is au natural and feels a whole lot better too. Family planning has the added benefit of allowing women to be in touch with their cycles and to notice if there is a medical issue so she can seek treatment and allows a woman to become pregnant more easily when she wants to. It does not stop the transmission of disease. I have nothing against condoms and think that if a person wants to avoid disease they should either avoid sex or use condoms knowing that it is not 100% effective in stopping disease.

We are NOT back where we started. The 95% is for people who use the beads AND secondary forms of birth control. 'With correct and consistent use each month and reliance on another form of contraceptive' This alone invalidates that statistic as a comparative not to mention those cycle beads are 100% useless against HIV prevention, a HUGE problem in Africa that must be addressed with any mention of birth control methodologies. Your arguments really miss the science in this. You like picking out the statistics in a manner that suits your point, when you ignore small things like the fact that cycle beads function at almost the same level as condoms when used with a separate birth control method seems to really invalidate their usefulness. Condom perfect usage only requires a bit of education, not the pope screaming that they're useless. And I'm really irritated by your argument against condoms by suggesting "oh, they can't afford them" Trust me, there are so very many free birth control methods distributed across the world and to third world countries, affording them is NOT the issue. Trojan and lifestyles both donate millions of condoms each year. Trojan donated 350,000 to Washington D.C. alone for HIV prevention, I have to leave for work now, but I'll leave you to your own devices to google and tally the number of condoms donated worldwide by trojan, IBI, Lifestyles, and other companies, I bet its enough to keep almost all of Africa good for going for a long time.

 

[Dr.Who]

It isn't whether the poison runs up the tree, but rather it is assumed the words flow down. The local archbishop is the head of things in his locality, what he says is taken as the word of the catholic church as sanctioned by the pope. Whether or not the church has this belief or not does not matter, the Catholics in his locality as well as those from surrounding jurisdictions will very well believe it just as if it were the pope who said it.

That would make them stupid too. It is not like we don' see catholic priest disagreeing with the vatican all the time. They do tend to get censured eventually - did this guy?

 

[Dr.Who]

We are NOT back where we started. The 95% is for people who use the beads AND secondary forms of birth control. 'With correct and consistent use each month and reliance on another form of contraceptive'

I was about to admit that I had stuck my foot in my mouth and go on about how stupid I was to have missed that the cycle beads were being used with another method.

Then I went to their web site to read that line. I could not find it on there anywhere. So I googled it.

I did find it on a website that was discussing the effectiveness of several cycle methods all lumped together including the rhythm method ( You know what they call people who practice the rhythm method? A: Parents). Additionallhy the other method was only being used on days that the beads method advocated abstinance. and abstinence itself would be another method. So i don't find that to be terribly troubling at all.

 

[Dr.Who]

We are NOT back where we started. The 95% is for people who use the beads AND secondary forms of birth control. 'With correct and consistent use each month and reliance on another form of contraceptive' This alone invalidates that statistic as a comparative not to mention those cycle beads are 100% useless against HIV prevention, a HUGE problem in Africa that must be addressed with any mention of birth control methodologies. Your arguments really miss the science in this. You like picking out the statistics in a manner that suits your point, when you ignore small things like the fact that cycle beads function at almost the same level as condoms when used with a separate birth control method seems to really invalidate their usefulness. Condom perfect usage only requires a bit of education, not the pope screaming that they're useless. And I'm really irritated by your argument against condoms by suggesting "oh, they can't afford them" Trust me, there are so very many free birth control methods distributed across the world and to third world countries, affording them is NOT the issue. Trojan and lifestyles both donate millions of condoms each year. Trojan donated 350,000 to Washington D.C. alone for HIV prevention, I have to leave for work now, but I'll leave you to your own devices to google and tally the number of condoms donated worldwide by trojan, IBI, Lifestyles, and other companies, I bet its enough to keep almost all of Africa good for going for a long time.

The pope advocated several methods: natural family planning, cycle beads, abstinence, and fidelity. topgether they do adequately address the needs of both birth control and disease. They are a viable alternative in terms of both effectiveness in postponing pregnancy or avoiding disease.

You and I may prefer other methods but that does not negate that he is not wrong to promote his preferred methods.

Unless he lies about HIV being in the condoms. And I personally do not judge one person by the statements of another.

 

[Dr.Who]

I wanted to review this site to see if after all these posts we have gotten off track. It turns out that r0beph's first post was one in which he claimed that the Christian's were actually responsible for the overpopulation in south Africa.

At this point I wold like to state that the claim is ridiculous. Advocating family planning methods and abstinence and fidelity which are all very effective would not create overpopulation any more than advocating condoms which are very effective. And those methods do not require outside organizations to donate billions of dollars worth of condoms every year forever.

The people responsible for the overpopulation in Africa are the ones not using any method of birth control at all. Is that too simple?

And I would add that it is not overpopulation if a country can care for all the people. And Africa could support it's population were it not for the various wars and conflicts.

 

[r0beph]

I wanted to review this site to see if after all these posts we have gotten off track. It turns out that r0beph's first post was one in which he claimed that the Christian's were actually responsible for the overpopulation in south Africa.

At this point I wold like to state that the claim is ridiculous. Advocating family planning methods and abstinence and fidelity which are all very effective would not create overpopulation any more than advocating condoms which are very effective. And those methods do not require outside organizations to donate billions of dollars worth of condoms every year forever.

The people responsible for the overpopulation in Africa are the ones not using any method of birth control at all. Is that too simple?

And I would add that it is not overpopulation if a country can care for all the people. And Africa could support it's population were it not for the various wars and conflicts.

I covered the part about the political unrest and power vacuums leading to the lack of foodstuffs in African locations of famine (second long post I made). As for going off track, I actually did not. Bdodie in his first 3 line post made the statement that "conservative family values" [didn't] lead to this, through a sarcastic remark on the subject. I simply addressed this.

I never once stated that family planning is a problem. I do believe that it doesn't help as much as you'd like to believe it does. This is not due to it being an incorrect notion, but rather much harder to actually put into place within a group of large numbers (africans, americans, or otherwise, this is well shown). I do however stand wholly by my assertion that Christianity/Catholicism's abhorance of physical birth control methods is partly to blame for the population explosion. You will not find any evidence to the contrary, you will find plenty showing this to be the status quo.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

No. God ordered one man (Ezekiel) bake bread on a fire that was fueled with human dung. No, he did not do it to shame isreal but to demonstrate how when they ate bread with the gentiles it was like eating defiled (baked over a human dung fire) bread. And yes Ezekiel complained and was permitted to cook his bread over a cow dung fire instead.

The passage is clear: the recipe for the ingredients of the bread is given in verse 9, then there is a description of how meat and water are to be eaten in verses 10 and 11, and then in verse 12 a description of how to cook the bread referred to in verse 9.

How about Ezekiel 4:13: And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.

We have talked this one to death and you are just wrong.

I am willing to listen to your interpretation of this scriptural reference, so far your argument has consisted of telling me that I'm wrong. Go through it word by word and phrase by phrase telling me where I have it wrong please.

The next ones too.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You can't pick and choose within a passage.

If you believe the passage at all that the daughters got pregnant from their fathers then you must accept the rest of the narrative as well.

It is clear from the passage that the daughters conspired and tricked their father.

You may never see that but all here can see your bias and use it to evaluate future statements you may make.

Who says you can't pick and choose? Not me. Who wrote that scripture, not the daughters you can bet. If you have sex with your daughters while drunk and get them pregnant you will not avoid being prosecuted by the law--unless those daughters are the age of consent. We know only that Lot's daughters were virgins.

The other part I find interesting is that when a man is SO Drunk that he doesn't know he's having sex with his two daughters in a cave where they have just taken refuge after their city was destroyed, then my guess is that he's so drunk that he's not going to be sexually functional. The story stinks from beginning to end and it's nothing that we should teach our children as the Word of God. Take it out.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

That would be a pretty stupid thing for an archbishop to say. I doubt the level of stupidity reaches as far into the catholic organisation as you seem to think.

Stupidity has a glass ceiling? How did George get through? I think your idea here is wishful thinking.

 

[Hobo1]

It is truly amazing how often and how pervasively religion is used as the universal source of truth in all debates. Kind of of like a Swiss Army knife, no matter what is broken, religion can be pulled out and the proper tool chosen to fix anything and everything.

"Bless me father for I have helped overpopulate the earth by raping my virgin daughter in a cave when I was blind drink."

"Say three hail Marys, don't do it again, and God will forgive you"

"Thank you father, for sure next time she won't be a virgin!"

Now let's move on to a subject where religion isn't important - like the abortion debate, or terrorism.

 

[r0beph]

It is truly amazing how often and how pervasively religion is used as the universal source of truth in all debates. Kind of of like a Swiss Army knife, no matter what is broken, religion can be pulled out and the proper tool chosen to fix anything and everything.

"Bless me father for I have helped overpopulate the earth by raping my virgin daughter in a cave when I was blind drink."

"Say three hail Marys, don't do it again, and God will forgive you"

"Thank you father, for sure next time she won't be a virgin!"

Now let's move on to a subject where religion isn't important - like the abortion debate, or terrorism.

While I agree, just fyi, the virigin rape (usually considered as a cure for HIV) is related less to any formal religion and usually comes from the witchdoctors. They also are at root of the problem of albino slaughter, where body parts of the albinos are taken as components for spells.

Mind you, this does not change that aside from this notation, any of what your post is saying. I fully agree. Religion is a problematic social force in many areas. Allowing for people to divert their responsibility on to a higher power when it is they who really need to accept it.

 

[Dr.Who]

How about Ezekiel 4:13: And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.

That was already answered when I typed:

"they ate bread with the gentiles it was like eating defiled (baked over a dung fire) bread."

The reason the bread eaten by the Jews was defiled was that it was eaten in unclean circumstances (with gentiles who did not practice Kosher standards).

As a simile the bread eaten by Ezekiel was defiled because it was cooked over a fire made with dung.