A definiton of social justice; just a suggestion

samsara15

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Components of social justice: In no particular order...

1. Democratic institutions with seperation of powers.
2. Equal protection of the laws.
3. Basic needs of every citizen being met (food, shelter, healthcare, education etc.)
4. Equal opportunity.
5. Freedom of speech, press, religion etc.
6. Adequate social safety nets for the disabled, elderly and otherwise helpless.
7. Respect for and protection of the environment.
8. Gender, age, ethnic, sexual orientation and racial equality.
9. Economic equity.

an added note:

A just society is one in which grievous and unnecessary hardships are not created due to the circumstances of a person's birth, the prejudices of a segment of the population, the lack of resources, or by governmental corruption or tyranny. In a just society, for instance, you wouldn't be jailed for criticizing the Dear Leader. Your child wouldn't die for lack of access to health care. You wouldn't be separated from your family because you didn't bribe the right official. Yes, I buried some important decisions in those words 'grievous' and 'unnecessary'. For instance, that I don't have a big screen TV is not an injustice; and it is necessary for some people to be denied a kidney transplant, because there aren't enough available that match and we shouldn't force people to give up a healthy kidney.
 
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3. Basic needs of every citizen being met (food, shelter, healthcare, education etc.)

So if an able-bodied person isn't working, I'm forced to contribute to his food, shelter, healthcare, education etc.?

So much for "justice".

Back to the drawing board, eh, samsara? :rolleyes:

P.S. There's a name for what you're describing. But it isn't "justice".
 
Jobs can be provided. The current system does not do that. Where do you get the idea that all these able bodied people want to lie around and do nothing all day?

Is that what you'd want, for yourself, or simply your opinion of other people? If so, rest assured that most people do not want that. Most people want to have some influence over the world they live in. You don't get that influence by being a free-loader. You have to be a contributor to have influence, and most people would welcome more opportunity to become a contributor.
 
And libs see justice in allowing a women to murder her baby. They fail to see the injustice committed to the baby. How does one think this way?

Blind spots everywhere with libs.
 
Components of social justice: In no particular order...

1. Democratic institutions with seperation of powers.
2. Equal protection of the laws.
3. Basic needs of every citizen being met (food, shelter, healthcare, education etc.)
4. Equal opportunity.
5. Freedom of speech, press, religion etc.
6. Adequate social safety nets for the disabled, elderly and otherwise helpless.
7. Respect for and protection of the environment.
8. Gender, age, ethnic, sexual orientation and racial equality.
9. Economic equity.

an added note:

A just society is one in which grievous and unnecessary hardships are not created due to the circumstances of a person's birth, the prejudices of a segment of the population, the lack of resources, or by governmental corruption or tyranny. In a just society, for instance, you wouldn't be jailed for criticizing the Dear Leader. Your child wouldn't die for lack of access to health care. You wouldn't be separated from your family because you didn't bribe the right official. Yes, I buried some important decisions in those words 'grievous' and 'unnecessary'. For instance, that I don't have a big screen TV is not an injustice; and it is necessary for some people to be denied a kidney transplant, because there aren't enough available that match and we shouldn't force people to give up a healthy kidney.

food
shelter
healthcare
education
etc.
Economic equity


Food, Can you explain this better for me please. Food, we have a right to food? How much and what kind and who pays for our food and who decides how much is enough and what type is "fair"

Shelter, A home of my own or a rental? If its a right it should be free yes? You didnt say a right to affordable housing, just shelter. What if all anyone is willing to give me is a cockroach infested apartment? That seems hardly fair.

How much healthcare should I have a right to and again is this free? If its a right it should be free it seems to me. Do we have a right to any kind of healthcare we want, Vision and dental too? Do I get to pick nice glasses or contacts free and can I get nice bridgework so its not obvious I have had dental work done?

we already have edcuation, its not free it costs tax payers billions but we have it and many throw it away and those who finish often can not read.

what is the exc.? What else do we have a right to?


Last but not least....Economic equity

The business dictionary says

economic equity definition: Economy in which the apportionment of resources or goods among the people is considered fair.


How do you obtain this? There will always be the Bill Gates and Oprah's of the world and there will always be the poor. There are the poor like me who work 50 hours a week and the poor like my brother who doesnt feel the need to work because it might mess up his food stamps and drinking till 4 am.
 
food
shelter
healthcare
education
etc.
Economic equity


Food, Can you explain this better for me please. Food, we have a right to food? How much and what kind and who pays for our food and who decides how much is enough and what type is "fair"

Shelter, A home of my own or a rental? If its a right it should be free yes? You didnt say a right to affordable housing, just shelter. What if all anyone is willing to give me is a cockroach infested apartment? That seems hardly fair.

How much healthcare should I have a right to and again is this free? If its a right it should be free it seems to me. Do we have a right to any kind of healthcare we want, Vision and dental too? Do I get to pick nice glasses or contacts free and can I get nice bridgework so its not obvious I have had dental work done?

we already have edcuation, its not free it costs tax payers billions but we have it and many throw it away and those who finish often can not read.

what is the exc.? What else do we have a right to?


Last but not least....Economic equity

The business dictionary says

economic equity definition: Economy in which the apportionment of resources or goods among the people is considered fair.


How do you obtain this? There will always be the Bill Gates and Oprah's of the world and there will always be the poor. There are the poor like me who work 50 hours a week and the poor like my brother who doesnt feel the need to work because it might mess up his food stamps and drinking till 4 am.

This is a working list, Pandora. A society to work towards.
 
Components of social justice: In no particular order...

1. Democratic institutions with separation of powers.
2. Equal protection of the laws.
3. Basic needs of every citizen being met (food, shelter, health care, education etc.)
4. Equal opportunity.
5. Freedom of speech, press, religion etc.
6. Adequate social safety nets for the disabled, elderly and otherwise helpless.
7. Respect for and protection of the environment.
8. Gender, age, ethnic, sexual orientation and racial equality.
9. Economic equity.

1. Agree
2. Agree, and I would add that the laws must be based in a constitution that does not change unless done through the amendment process--i.e., based on the will of the governed.
3. Disagree. It is not "just" to meet the needs of every person. It is "just" to ensure each person has equal access to the things they need and desire, and to secure for themselves through personal industry those things they need to survive. Only for those incapable of fending for themselves, due to circumstances beyond their control, is forced collective charity justified. Uncoerced charity can be encouraged.
4. Agree
5. Agree, although careful with the etc.
6. Agree, as per item 3.
7. Natural resources should be husbanded wisely and sustainably when possible. Respect people, not things.
8. All people shall be equal before the law. Period.
9. Disagree. It is not possible to ensure economic equality, as each person has different gifts, ambition, desire, and risks they are willing to take to succeed. As per item 3, it should be access to opportunities that are made equal, not outcomes.

A just society is one in which grievous and unnecessary hardships are not created due to the circumstances of a person's birth, the prejudices of a segment of the population, the lack of resources, or by governmental corruption or tyranny. In a just society, for instance, you wouldn't be jailed for criticizing the Dear Leader. Your child wouldn't die for lack of access to health care. You wouldn't be separated from your family because you didn't bribe the right official. Yes, I buried some important decisions in those words 'grievous' and 'unnecessary'. For instance, that I don't have a big screen TV is not an injustice; and it is necessary for some people to be denied a kidney transplant, because there aren't enough available that match and we shouldn't force people to give up a healthy kidney.

You always have to be careful when you ask elected officials to ensure economic equality. They will use the system to bribe 51% of the population with the other 49%'s money. True justice is impossible to achieve within a human created system, as there is no universally recognized standard from which to mete out rewards and punishments. I would rather focus on ensuring each person has equal opportunity to access those public and private goods and services that seems good to them (without affecting anyone else's rights).
 
Jobs can be provided. The current system does not do that. Where do you get the idea that all these able bodied people want to lie around and do nothing all day?

I've met plenty of people who wanted nothing more than to lay around all day and do nothing (and I'm not just talking about teenagers). It is a fact of the human condition that some people have no ambition. I'm fine with that. I don't own them a thing, and they've no right to demand anything.

The current system would be capable of providing plenty of jobs if the government hadn't made such a mess with poor regulation and poor economic policy--but that's a debate for a different thread. Capitalism, when moderated by a government that intrudes just enough to assure a level playing field, is unmatched for job creation and economic prosperity. Unfortunately, history has shown that finding a government willing to limit itself to only intrude just enough is hard to find.
 
This is a working list, Pandora. A society to work towards.

ok working towards but in this society who pays?

There will always be a group of people who enjoy hard work and do more than they have to and there will always be a group of those who will do as little as possible.

in your society, who pays for everyones food and who decides what is quality food? who pays for housing and who decides what is quality housing?

Someone must be in charge in this society right? Who decides what is fair between the haves and have nots?
 
ok working towards but in this society who pays?

There will always be a group of people who enjoy hard work and do more than they have to and there will always be a group of those who will do as little as possible.

in your society, who pays for everyones food and who decides what is quality food? who pays for housing and who decides what is quality housing?

Someone must be in charge in this society right? Who decides what is fair between the haves and have nots?

For the sake of discussion why don't you pretend that you don't believe in social Darwinism and suggest ways that we could operate our society in order to make it more rational. You know, less people homeless, less people hungry, less violence, or any other thing that you might think comes under the rubric of "social justice".

You don't really think we live in the best of all possible worlds do you? You see things that don't seem right to you, why not make suggestion about a way to make things better?
 
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For the sake of discussion why don't you pretend that you don't believe in social Darwinism and suggest ways that we could operate our society in order to make it more rational. You know, less people homeless, less people hungry, less violence, or any other thing that you might think comes under the rubric of "social justice".

You don't really think we live in the best of all possible worlds do you? You see things that don't seem right to you, why not make suggestion about a way to make things better?

First, remember I am just asking Samsara to explain their thread because I didnt understand who they felt was going to pay for everyones food and home exc and I didnt know who was going to decide what is fair and equal... Come to think of it in another thread you said something simular about having a right to "Quality" food and shelter and when I asked you who was going to pay for it and more importantly who decided what was quality food, shelter and health care you didnt reply.

but since you asked :)

The best way I know of to stop those type of problems is to stop giving out hand outs and start giving hands up.

That sounds dumb to you I am sure but I know that its true.

There are always cases of people who for short periods of time really need a hand and I am very happy to lend that hand but there are hundreds of thousands of people like my brother who wait for new programs and have zero intention of ever carrying his own weight or even attempting to try.

I do not think it helps my brother when tax payers provide his food stamps so he can trade them for cash for booze and I dont think giving him an SSI check so he can stay in motels for a week and get really really high on dope tll the money is gone then sleep in bathrooms, on the river or homeless shelters till his next SSI check comes. You can throw all the money you want at him and it will never change him. He lost his kids and that didnt change him, he is just one of hundreds of thousands.

Sometimes you just have to let people help themselves.


But there are cases where someone might need help for a few months due to the house caught on fire or husband left them and took all the money and now they are getting evicted exc.. or the person is very sick or what ever. Lots of real cases where we can and should help.

All that said I do not think I have a right to food or a right to shelter or a right to healthcare. I have a right to be able to work and keep my money to buy my own food, shelter and healthcare. I also have a right to tell obama to stick it and not be forced to take his health care. Its too bad obama and his followers do not agree that I have that right :(
 
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