Health care reform, page 425

[PLC1]

says that seniors will be given end of life counseling "guiding you in death".

According to the opponents of the measure.

OK, time to put up or shut up.

Here is the text of the bill being considered in the house.

Find us page 425 (good luck, it's not paginated) and let's see what the actual text might be.

While you're at it, here's a partial list of objectionable provision in the bill, again according to the opponents.

* Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
* Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by
phone).
* Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens,
assisted suicide, euthanasia?
* Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable
powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of
time.
* Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding
you in death.
* Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment;
government dictates how your life ends.
* Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as
pa tient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans.
An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
* Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at
end-of-life.
* Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
* Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
* Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government
intervenes in your marriage.
* Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and
rationing those services

 

[Pandora]

How can you save money if you dont "off" the old people? They will get "end of life" counseling and the guilt trip that goes with it till they agree that they and the society are better off with them dead.

Those with cancer like what is happening currently here in Oregon will be treated the same...

That is the change we need!!

 

[pocketfullofshells]

How can you save money if you dont "off" the old people? They will get "end of life" counseling and the guilt trip that goes with it till they agree that they and the society are better off with them dead.

Those with cancer like what is happening currently here in Oregon will be treated the same...

That is the change we need!!

news flash...old people die.....
news flash, some people who know they are dieing may like counsling on what options that have...Like a do not resusitate...or other options that they may choose....this if of course a OPTION

my gandmother had a DNR done...and a retarded hospital ignored it....she ended up with a operation she did not want, and suffered for months more..this was against he wishes and very hard on her and the family....You dont want the goverment in health care making those choices...but I bet you where one of the ones cheering that the goverment made choices for Shivo...and against those who suffer and actuly yes choose not to suffer more, call it a good life, and have some peace....You would like the goverment to force them to live till no machine can keep them artificaly alive I bet.


and how do you save money and not kill old people? if thats not one of the most retarded questions I have heard....I dont know what is.

just a easy shot in the dark here....preventitive health care?

 

[Pandora]

news flash...old people die.....
news flash, some people who know they are dieing may like counsling on what options that have...Like a do not resusitate...or other options that they may choose....this if of course a OPTION

my gandmother had a DNR done...and a retarded hospital ignored it....she ended up with a operation she did not want, and suffered for months more..this was against he wishes and very hard on her and the family....You dont want the goverment in health care making those choices...but I bet you where one of the ones cheering that the goverment made choices for Shivo...and against those who suffer and actuly yes choose not to suffer more, call it a good life, and have some peace....You would like the goverment to force them to live till no machine can keep them artificaly alive I bet.



and how do you save money and not kill old people? if thats not one of the most retarded questions I have heard....I dont know what is.

just a easy shot in the dark hear....preventitive health care?

There is no option, the end of life counseling is mandatory and it will be given either every 3 or every 5 years I read about it but I cant remember now if it was every 3 or every 5 years after you reach a certian age.

If your grandma wanted to die and no one let her I am sorry for your grandmother. I do not think people should be forced to live. But I also do not think people should be forced to get end of life counseling.

I am very upset that the government made choices for Terri Schiavo. The government forced her starve to death over a period of days because her jack ass husband wanted her money. I believe her parents should have been making the choices for her not the government and the man who wanted her to die so he could get her money. She was not on life support, she had a feeding tube only because her husband was too cheap to spend Terri's money on someone to help feed her by mouth.


But back to this topic. Are you seriously ok with forced mandatory end of life counseling? Its just way too 1984 for me.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

show me the writting, show were in any bill it says you have to have it.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2009/07/27/health-care-bill-page-425-the-truth.htm

 

[Pandora]

Apparently on Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment;

Till this thread I did not know what page but I have listened to it be read from the bill a few times.

Did you read the first post in this thread? This is not the only mandatory thing and not the only thing the government is taking control over where private people are concerned.

again I ask you

dont you have a problem with this?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Apparently on Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment;

Till this thread I did not know what page but I have listened to it be read from the bill a few times.

Did you read the first post in this thread? This is not the only mandatory thing and not the only thing the government is taking control over where private people are concerned.

again I ask you

dont you have a problem with this?

novel idea...instead of "apparently" why dont you actuly post what it says? you know facts?

 

[Pandora]

novel idea...instead of "apparently" why dont you actuly post what it says? you know facts?

I cut that part out of what PLC1 put in his first post. Do you not trust where he got it from?

I do not have the bill personally. I have never seen the bill personally. I guess that makes me much like our Senators and congressmen

I have listened to a number of people read the bill and quote out of the bill. PLC1's post is the first I have seen in it in print.

Why are you playing word games ?

If you believe what PLC1 posted is a lie then say so, if you believe its not then say so.

Do you have any thoughts on what was posted about the bill?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I cut that part out of what PLC1 put in his first post. Do you not trust where he got it from?

I do not have the bill personally. I have never seen the bill personally. I guess that makes me much like our Senators and congressmen

I have listened to a number of people read the bill and quote out of the bill. PLC1's post is the first I have seen in it in print.

Why are you playing word games ?

If you believe what PLC1 posted is a lie then say so, if you believe its not then say so.

Do you have any thoughts on what was posted about the bill?

the post was what opponants have said....not facts...they have said lots of things...like that you will be forced to have these things done...when it is a option given to you

 

[Pandora]

I have tried about 8 times to open the actual bill and cut and past that page for you but every time I try to open it I freeze up.

 

[PLC1]

I have tried about 8 times to open the actual bill and cut and past that page for you but every time I try to open it I freeze up.

It is quite long, and might freeze the computer. It is, after all, over 1,000 pages!

What I posted is exactly what PFS says it is: Talking points by opponents of the bill. What I can't find is the part of the bill that actually says or doesn't say what the opponents say if does.

I think probably PFS's link tells us what we need to know about page 425 of that non paginated document, but does it say something on the next couple of pages that make death counseling mandatory?

This inquiring mind would like to know whether there is anything to the scare tactics, or whether it is just the insurance companies covering their hides.

So far, I'm inclined to believe that it is just that, but I don't really know.

I did find the one about restricting special needs individuals: They can only enroll during open enrollment, or during a change of status, just like everyone else, and just like most group insurance plans. That one I know for sure if bogus.

Are the rest of them bogus too? Can anyone post actual text from the bill (not opposition talking points) to back any of them up?

There are more negative statements as well. Here they are:

* Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
* Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
* Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you
get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
* Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for yo
u. You will have no choice. None.
* Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free
healthcare services.
* Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
* Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all
individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
* Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer
health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
* Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to
participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
* Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare
Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
* Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services;
translation: illegal aliens
* Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals
for Government-run Health Care plan.
* Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have
no choice in the matter.
* Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial
review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private
insurers will be crushed.
* Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
* Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run
public plan. No alternatives.
* Page 126: Emplo yers MUST pay h ealthcare bills for part-time employees AND
their families.
* Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the
public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR * Page 150: Any employer with a
payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to
6% tax on payroll
* Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to
the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
* Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans
will pay for them).
* Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will
have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
* Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax."
Yes, it really says that.
* Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the
poor most affected."
* Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the
same (thanks, AMA!)
* Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment,
etc.
* Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare
industries.
* Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven
wheelchairs.
* Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
* Page 280: Hospitals will be20penalized for what the government deems
preventable re-admissions.
* Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that
results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
* Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in
healthcare companies!
* Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without
government approval.
* Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet
another payoff for ACORN.
* Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e.,
ration ing.

Remember: These are from a viral email, not from the text of the bill!

 

[Andy]

It is quite long, and might freeze the computer. It is, after all, over 1,000 pages!

What I posted is exactly what PFS says it is: Talking points by opponents of the bill. What I can't find is the part of the bill that actually says or doesn't say what the opponents say if does.

I think probably PFS's link tells us what we need to know about page 425 of that non paginated document, but does it say something on the next couple of pages that make death counseling mandatory?

This inquiring mind would like to know whether there is anything to the scare tactics, or whether it is just the insurance companies covering their hides.

So far, I'm inclined to believe that it is just that, but I don't really know.

I did find the one about restricting special needs individuals: They can only enroll during open enrollment, or during a change of status, just like everyone else, and just like most group insurance plans. That one I know for sure if bogus.

Are the rest of them bogus too? Can anyone post actual text from the bill (not opposition talking points) to back any of them up?

There are more negative statements as well. Here they are:



Remember: These are from a viral email, not from the text of the bill!

I read through some of the bill. Most of those are pretty accurate. I'm not going to blaw blaw blaw with those on this forum about what words mean, and the document is 1,000 + pages. If you wish to disprove what people are saying about the bill, you read it your own self.

Of course the point is, I wager no one on capital hill know what is in this 1,000+ page bill. That alone is an excellent reason to not pass it.

Spam emails usually have some kind of spin. I have not received any such Emails as of yet to verify what was written. However, it is clear that Government is mandating "end of life" advanced consultation.

This is under Section 1233, 5A, 5B and 5B part (b). In that paragraph, it does appear that a group consultation board will issue "orders" which must be adhered to by law. These orders could include mandating a will, or forms or treatment.

It would appear that either you, or the Email writers have interpreted this mandate of "end of life" consultation as being assisted suicide.

Assisted Suicide is never mentioned anywhere in the bill, as far as I can find. However, it is never excluded either. In fact the bill seems intentionally vague as to what "end of life" care refers to. So, in theory this mystery consultation group could determine that assisted suicide is the most reasonable economic choice, and give an order mandating it.

Again, the bill is very vague on what "end of life" treatment means. It's also possible that it is defined in a completely different section. Good luck on finding that section, and making the connection to the mandates here.

 

[PLC1]

I read through some of the bill. Most of those are pretty accurate. I'm not going to blaw blaw blaw with those on this forum about what words mean, and the document is 1,000 + pages. If you wish to disprove what people are saying about the bill, you read it your own self.

Of course the point is, I wager no one on capital hill know what is in this 1,000+ page bill. That alone is an excellent reason to not pass it.

Spam emails usually have some kind of spin. I have not received any such Emails as of yet to verify what was written. However, it is clear that Government is mandating "end of life" advanced consultation.

This is under Section 1233, 5A, 5B and 5B part (b). In that paragraph, it does appear that a group consultation board will issue "orders" which must be adhered to by law. These orders could include mandating a will, or forms or treatment.

It would appear that either you, or the Email writers have interpreted this mandate of "end of life" consultation as being assisted suicide.

Assisted Suicide is never mentioned anywhere in the bill, as far as I can find. However, it is never excluded either. In fact the bill seems intentionally vague as to what "end of life" care refers to. So, in theory this mystery consultation group could determine that assisted suicide is the most reasonable economic choice, and give an order mandating it.

Again, the bill is very vague on what "end of life" treatment means. It's also possible that it is defined in a completely different section. Good luck on finding that section, and making the connection to the mandates here.

But it does say that end of life counseling is optional on the part of the patient, yet the anti reform talking point says that it will save money by killing off seniors.

The point of all of this is that we seriously need to take a look at health care reform. If we keep the present non system, the costs are going to eat us alive.

Spreading fear via falsehoods is not going to help the honest debate about what should be done.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I read through some of the bill. Most of those are pretty accurate. I'm not going to blaw blaw blaw with those on this forum about what words mean, and the document is 1,000 + pages. If you wish to disprove what people are saying about the bill, you read it your own self.

Of course the point is, I wager no one on capital hill know what is in this 1,000+ page bill. That alone is an excellent reason to not pass it.

Spam emails usually have some kind of spin. I have not received any such Emails as of yet to verify what was written. However, it is clear that Government is mandating "end of life" advanced consultation.

This is under Section 1233, 5A, 5B and 5B part (b). In that paragraph, it does appear that a group consultation board will issue "orders" which must be adhered to by law. These orders could include mandating a will, or forms or treatment.

It would appear that either you, or the Email writers have interpreted this mandate of "end of life" consultation as being assisted suicide.

Assisted Suicide is never mentioned anywhere in the bill, as far as I can find. However, it is never excluded either. In fact the bill seems intentionally vague as to what "end of life" care refers to. So, in theory this mystery consultation group could determine that assisted suicide is the most reasonable economic choice, and give an order mandating it.

Again, the bill is very vague on what "end of life" treatment means. It's also possible that it is defined in a completely different section. Good luck on finding that section, and making the connection to the mandates here.

well being that only one state has legal assisted suicide....it would not make much sense to say anything in the bill about it...I am sure a fair amount of ilegal medical acts are not listed.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

But it does say that end of life counseling is optional on the part of the patient, yet the anti reform talking point says that it will save money by killing off seniors.

The point of all of this is that we seriously need to take a look at health care reform. If we keep the present non system, the costs are going to eat us alive.

Spreading fear via falsehoods is not going to help the honest debate about what should be done.

what andy fails to figure out is, that there are more then one bill to read and know...and they are all changing all the time....and it would be impossible to ready a 1000 page bill daily to keep up with changes...and read other ones...and actuly do anything else other then that one bill. that said before a vote on a finnaly all should have read it clearly