If clergy were honest, would religions die?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

If clergy were honest, would religions die?


I do not think so. Based on the fact, some clergy are maintaining religions based on telling the truth and have stopped lying to their adherents. Knowing this, I wonder why the clergy of all supernaturally based religions continue to lie to their adherents.


In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today. The ancients admitted that nothing concrete could be known about God. God was said to be unknowable, unfathomable and worked in mysterious ways and that no attributes could be applied to God.


http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2


Today, the idol worshiping religions, like Christianity and Islam, have given what they still claim is an unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious God, with kinds of attributes; which of course are human attributes taken to the maximum of the impossible and delusional supernatural.


Some religions seem to be returning to the more intelligent thinking of the ancients.


Would the idol worshiping religions like Christianity and Islam, be well served if their clergy returned to telling the truth of what they can know of God, or are the clergy serving their religions better by continuing to lie to their adherents?


Regards

DL


P.S.

What is said here about politicians and business is a good analogy to what I think religions do.

 

[Openmind]

If clergy were honest, would religions die?


I do not think so. Based on the fact, some clergy are maintaining religions based on telling the truth and have stopped lying to their adherents. Knowing this, I wonder why the clergy of all supernaturally based religions continue to lie to their adherents.


In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today. The ancients admitted that nothing concrete could be known about God. God was said to be unknowable, unfathomable and worked in mysterious ways and that no attributes could be applied to God.


http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2


Today, the idol worshiping religions, like Christianity and Islam, have given what they still claim is an unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious God, with kinds of attributes; which of course are human attributes taken to the maximum of the impossible and delusional supernatural.


Some religions seem to be returning to the more intelligent thinking of the ancients.


Would the idol worshiping religions like Christianity and Islam, be well served if their clergy returned to telling the truth of what they can know of God, or are the clergy serving their religions better by continuing to lie to their adherents?


Regards

DL


P.S.

What is said here about politicians and business is a good analogy to what I think religions do.

I believe if religions told the truth, and only the KNOWN truth, people would understand that religions (all religions) are merely the representation of men's cultural heritage and human needs projected on God, and therefore RELIGIONS, as such, would no longer be needed, unless merely as a "social gathering" of like minded people, NOT as a true representation of GOD.

This knowledge would not eliminate the belief of people in God. . .if this is their fundamental, conscious understanding, but would stop separating people by religions, based on human made dogmas and ancient beliefs related solely on ignorance of science (i.e., Jewish and Muslim believing that pork meat is against God's will, when that belief is probably an ancient protection against spoiled meat, which is no longer relevant today due to the progress in production and refrigeration).

I believe in GOD. I do not believe in ANY religion, although I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and attended Catholic school (even boarding school with 5 compulsory early morning masses every week!), and although I very much admire and respect today's Pope. I believe religions, not the belief in God, is holding people back and creating divisions and wars. . .for the benefits of for financial and political profits churches. . .such as the current Evangelical Church which I consider to be the Christian equivalent to the Talibans.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Openmind.

My kingdom for such eloquence.

Other than a belief in a supernatural God, if that is the type of God you meant, we are on the same page.

As a Gnostic Christian, and since we are known as knowers, I note that you used the term believe in God.

That is a faith based belief. No?

I ask because I think faith without facts is for fools and I do not read you as a fool in the rest of what you put.

Please speak further of the God you believe in.

Regards
DL

 

[Openmind]

Openmind.

My kingdom for such eloquence.

Other than a belief in a supernatural God, if that is the type of God you meant, we are on the same page.

As a Gnostic Christian, and since we are known as knowers, I note that you used the term believe in God.

That is a faith based belief. No?

I ask because I think faith without facts is for fools and I do not read you as a fool in the rest of what you put.

Please speak further of the God you believe in.

Regards
DL

When I use the term "GOD," it is for a lack of another term. It is not related to any "image" of a religious God. It is more in term of an overwhelming entity that is just beyond our current knowledge. A sort of "universal energy" that is influenced by our energy/conscience and, in turn, influence our energy/conscience.

You are correct, there is no FACT that would support this "belief." No more than there was "FACTS" to support the existence of electricity 400 years ago.

Then what do I base my "belief" on? my inner conscience, something that is greater than my thoughts, my will, my physical being, but influences the way I feel and act with myself and with others. Something that guides my way of being, that moves me, as some music does, or as a beautiful sunset does, or as the feeling I get when I walk in a room and KNOW that someone is angry, or sad, or excited, or simply that the persons assembled in that room were talking about me, or that they have positive or negative feelings about me.

I know. . .to you it is probably silly. And I can respect your position. I just have not found a way to empty myself of the feeling of being part of something greater than a mountain of biological cells. I believe in something that is sort of like the glue that holds those cells together (energy?) and that renders the mountain of cells meaningless once that "glue" disappears.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

When I use the term "GOD," it is for a lack of another term. It is not related to any "image" of a religious God. It is more in term of an overwhelming entity that is just beyond our current knowledge. A sort of "universal energy" that is influenced by our energy/conscience and, in turn, influence our energy/conscience.

You are correct, there is no FACT that would support this "belief." No more than there was "FACTS" to support the existence of electricity 400 years ago.

Then what do I base my "belief" on? my inner conscience, something that is greater than my thoughts, my will, my physical being, but influences the way I feel and act with myself and with others. Something that guides my way of being, that moves me, as some music does, or as a beautiful sunset does, or as the feeling I get when I walk in a room and KNOW that someone is angry, or sad, or excited, or simply that the persons assembled in that room were talking about me, or that they have positive or negative feelings about me.

I know. . .to you it is probably silly. And I can respect your position. I just have not found a way to empty myself of the feeling of being part of something greater than a mountain of biological cells. I believe in something that is sort of like the glue that holds those cells together (energy?) and that renders the mountain of cells meaningless once that "glue" disappears.

Not silly at all my friend.

Other than thinking of something larger than myself, I have had about the same experiences and feelings that the world was stranger than most knew basically all of my life.

I have claimed to have suffered apotheosis and finding what I call a cosmic consciousness or universal consciousness. Apotheosis is described as becoming divine but I do not take it to that extreme. I see it more as finding Jacob's ladder and moving up a rung.

This involved telepathy and I have had only two experiences of it that I can swear to. The first I have a witness to who will also swear to it. She called it an assault because it is an intense condition an even though my contact with her was only a second or two, I made her cry. If I did not have her as a witness, I would likely not admit to the reality of telepathy and would perhaps see my second experience as some kind of mid burp and would certainly not talk about it and take the abuse I do from the skeptics.

I later chose Gnostic Christianity as my religion of choice, mostly for their ideology, but partly because I saw one of the Jesus' who speaks from the bible as showing the way that I had found on my own.

You will never hear a church preach the real way to enlightenment that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I do not advocate that you choose Gnostic Christianity, although I think it helps us be the best possible human, but do suggest you try meditation and or self-hypnosis, or even hypnosis, if you do not think that you are engaging your right hemisphere of your brain as much as most of us do not.

As a teaser, have you noted that in Michelangelo's creation painting, God is shown to lie in a representation of our right hemisphere?

The Egyptian eye is also representing the same thing.

You might also know that the Vatican's largest sculpture is that of our pineal gland that most mystics say is the key to accessing our right hemispheres.

Regards
DL

P.S.

This science may be close to proving what I found.
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/famous-neuroscientist-proves-telepathy.140351/

 

[The Scotsman]

You will never hear a church preach the real way to enlightenment that Jesus taught.

You're right, because no one knows what Jesus taught... so how could they?
The modern "Churches" teaches what those "churches" interprete or believe as faith - none of which has anything to do with the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

If clergy were honest, would religions die?

Of course not. What has honesty or dishonesty got to do with faith?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

You're right, because no one knows what Jesus taught... so how could they?
The modern "Churches" teaches what those "churches" interprete or believe as faith - none of which has anything to do with the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

Of course not. What has honesty or dishonesty got to do with faith?

Dishonesty, in most, create doubt, but you are likely right that faith cause one to ignore dishonesty because the faithful delude themselves by just focusing on the benefits they think the lies will bring to them. Self gratification and accepting lies just to feel better. What a cheep high that carries a high price.

Regards
DL

 

[The Scotsman]

Dishonesty, in most, create doubt, but you are likely right that faith cause one to ignore dishonesty because the faithful delude themselves by just focusing on the benefits they think the lies will bring to them.

I don't agree with that, isn't it true mainstream Christian sects accept suffering and evil as a tenet of faith? There doesn't seem to be an innate dishonesty in accepting adversity as part of your belief system?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I don't agree with that, isn't it true mainstream Christian sects accept suffering and evil as a tenet of faith? There doesn't seem to be an innate dishonesty in accepting adversity as part of your belief system?

My last was poorly written. Instead of, --- Dishonesty, in most, create doubt, --- I should have said, Dishonesty directed at someone should create doubt.

But to your "isn't it true mainstream Christian sects accept suffering and evil as a tenet of faith?"

I do not think so as that is not in the apostles creed which is their tenet of faith.

https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/creeds/apostles-creed

Regards
DL

 

[The Scotsman]

I do not think so as that is not in the apostles creed which is their tenet of faith.

What about the doctrine of "hell" and "Sin" and the consequences of sin being damnation etc etc?
I'm not a churchy type peson but that concept seems pretty central in their belief pantheon?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

What about the doctrine of "hell" and "Sin" and the consequences of sin being damnation etc etc?
I'm not a churchy type peson but that concept seems pretty central in their belief pantheon?

It is indeed to most, but not all, denominations.

The more truthful ones that are closer to the truth, for some reason, are not as popular as the ones who lie all the more to their adherents.

Let me show you what I mean. With this first link of a pastor that basically lost his flock when he dared to speak the truth of the non-existence of hell.

This second link just confirms my view of hell being an invention of the church so as to help in it's lies and creation of false guilt.

As a Gnostic Christian and a member of a universalist creed, we see all souls as never being condemned as we believe that God believes in full equality for all.

Regards
DL

 

[The Scotsman]

In the more honest distant past, those who sought God; did so at a more intellectual level than most do today.

I think that is probably very true. I'm reading a book about Augustine at the moment by Robert Lane Fox; as a seemingly lifelong closet Manichean the struggles that Augustine when through to rationalise his faith and belief systems took him through a whole gamit of philosophical ideas borrowed from many parts of the world and from many different times. However, don't those musings of his and his compatriots lay the foundations for the modern philosophical approach to the church and its teachings and indeed its philosophical underpinning; I mean by the serious Christian thinkers, and thus by default already incorporated into the discourse?

Is Mani part of your belief system? I find him very bizzaar and confusing.

 

[The Scotsman]

With this first link of a pastor that basically lost his flock when he dared to speak the truth of the non-existence of hell.

Yeah.... I'm not sure what sort of religion this is? I guess if all you want is some quotes from the bible, bouncing up and down with a few "praise the lords" and a smattering of "hallelujahs" then the subtleties of the faith are probably missing.
Maybe if the congregation leader has some idea of what he's talking about then he could have conveyed the nuances of his religion a bit better?
Oral Roberts University???? Cash, snake oil and bullshit.

 

[Openmind]

I don't agree with that, isn't it true mainstream Christian sects accept suffering and evil as a tenet of faith? There doesn't seem to be an innate dishonesty in accepting adversity as part of your belief system?

I have a lot of doubt about this! Not because I believe that life should be all health and happiness. . .but because the "suffering" as the will of God has been USED by too many to keep poor people down, and even to try to explain why some are wealthy and some are "deserving to be poor. . .or sick. . .or abused!"

I take the difficult parts of my life (i.e., when I was diagnosed with cancer, or when my only son moved to Australia, taking with him my only grand child) as my personal challenges, not as "punishments" or "God's will!"

I deal with the difficulties in my life as challenges, I do my best to overcome them, without believing that, if they happen to me, it is because of some dark "revenge" from God!

Too many people accept their suffering as the "will of God," and others are encouraging them (i.e., those fundamental hyper religious "Christians" politicians who dare to say publicly that "rape and incest are the will of God!!!!")

Republican politician says rape and incest part of God's will | The ...
www.independent.co.uk › News › World › Americas

 

[Openmind]

Not silly at all my friend.

Other than thinking of something larger than myself, I have had about the same experiences and feelings that the world was stranger than most knew basically all of my life.

I have claimed to have suffered apotheosis and finding what I call a cosmic consciousness or universal consciousness. Apotheosis is described as becoming divine but I do not take it to that extreme. I see it more as finding Jacob's ladder and moving up a rung.

This involved telepathy and I have had only two experiences of it that I can swear to. The first I have a witness to who will also swear to it. She called it an assault because it is an intense condition an even though my contact with her was only a second or two, I made her cry. If I did not have her as a witness, I would likely not admit to the reality of telepathy and would perhaps see my second experience as some kind of mid burp and would certainly not talk about it and take the abuse I do from the skeptics.

I later chose Gnostic Christianity as my religion of choice, mostly for their ideology, but partly because I saw one of the Jesus' who speaks from the bible as showing the way that I had found on my own.

You will never hear a church preach the real way to enlightenment that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I do not advocate that you choose Gnostic Christianity, although I think it helps us be the best possible human, but do suggest you try meditation and or self-hypnosis, or even hypnosis, if you do not think that you are engaging your right hemisphere of your brain as much as most of us do not.

As a teaser, have you noted that in Michelangelo's creation painting, God is shown to lie in a representation of our right hemisphere?

The Egyptian eye is also representing the same thing.

You might also know that the Vatican's largest sculpture is that of our pineal gland that most mystics say is the key to accessing our right hemispheres.

Regards
DL

P.S.

This science may be close to proving what I found.
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/famous-neuroscientist-proves-telepathy.140351/

Interesting! I have had a couple of moments I felt were "beyond" my understanding, but were increasingly intense and meaningful.
1. The very first (and only) time I experienced Reiki, I had a sort of "vision" where I was standing on one side of a spring. On the other side, a woman dressed in white veils flowing in the wind was standing in a luscious decor of green grass and orchard. I could see only her back, not her face, but I wanted to join her there. Then, the wind, the sun, the air itself seemed to traverse her, she became part of it, as if she became transparent and herself and her veils swayed by the elements around her. It was very intense.
2. I used to work with people with AIDS, at a time (the mid 1990's) when AIDS was a fatal disease. During that time, I witnessed many death of young men, and a few women. Almost every week we had one or two of our clients death. Some of them had "celebration of life" prior to their death, usually within 1 week to a couple of days before they closed their eyes. Those celebrations were always very intense and a mixture of joy and sadness. . . usually no regrets. In one of those gathering, a gay man with AIDS put his arms around my shoulder in an act of solidarity, but very suddenly removed it. . .as if he had been burned. He looked at me stunned, and almost frightened and told me that, indeed, he had felt extreme heat when he touched me. It surprised me, but I didn't think much about it. . .until the same kind of encounter happened again twice, and always with people with AIDS. Once it was simply shaking hands. . . and I was told my hand was burning. ..although I didn't feel any unusual heat.
3. During my fight with breast cancer, while I was unsure whether I would survive or not, I woke up in the middle of the night in my bed, my husband sleeping next to me. I opened my eyes with the feeling someone was staring at me, and in front of me was an old woman(older I guess, as I was 46 at that time, and the woman might have been my current age between 65 and 75) bowing over me. . .and I screamed in fright! A chilling scream that obviously woke up my husband. The "woman" had disappeared, and I was left with a feeling of regret, a knowledge that that "woman" didn't want me any arm but, on the contrary, was a loving, friendly shadow, taking care of me, and for days I felt so sorry that I screamed instead of communicating with "her!"

Yes.. .I may be slightly crazy! But I call all those "encounters" my diamonds! You see, I am a very big "diamond" collectors. I have a corner of my consciousness filled with those "special moments" where I felt I was given a glimpse of (for lack of better word!) heaven.