Meet one of your distant ancestors:

[orogenicman]

OR... the tiny sequence fragments have no significance at all. "Once upon a time... " ...in our recent history, Northern latitudes were experiencing severe cloud cover due to (much) warmer oceans than now. That's what deposited all the ice that made the (drum roll) Ice Age. You see, it's not really cold that's required so much as persistent precipitation. Anyhow, people living in those regions experienced severe vitamin D3 deficiency due to the decreased sunlight at the time in those regions. The heavy brows and oddly shaped limbs are a direct result of that very deficiency. Descriptions of that weather still exist in tribal memories--it wasn't really that long ago, as it happens.

The problem with your argument is that vitamin D deficiency looks nothing like what we see in Neanderthal skeletons, to say nothing of the fact that the ice ages weren't caused by persistent precipitation, but were caused by the milankovitch cycles. If the traits we see in Neanderthals were caused by a vitamin D deficiency due to an incipient ice age, why don't we see those same traits in Asians who were no less affected by the ice ages?

 

[Pidgey]

The problem with your argument is that vitamin D deficiency looks nothing like what we see in Neanderthal skeletons, to say nothing of the fact that the ice ages weren't caused by persistent precipitation, but were caused by the milankovitch cycles. If the traits we see in Neanderthals were caused by a vitamin D deficiency due to an incipient ice age, why don't we see those same traits in Asians who were no less affected by the ice ages?

Gosh... I didn't think I stated the THERMODYNAMIC cause of the Ice Age, did I? "Persistent precipitation" was more of an effect of a temperature differential. Cr@p, nobody even disputes that part no matter the cause...

Why don't you try googling a map of where the ice actually was during the Ice Age, that might help you.

 

[orogenicman]

Gosh... I didn't think I stated the THERMODYNAMIC cause of the Ice Age, did I? "Persistent precipitation" was more of an effect of a temperature differential. Cr@p, nobody even disputes that part no matter the cause...

Why don't you try googling a map of where the ice actually was during the Ice Age, that might help you.

Huh? The milankovitch cycles describe the collective effects of changes in the Earth's movements upon its climate. Milanković mathematically theorised that variations in eccentricity, axial tilt, and precession of the Earth's orbit determined climatic patterns on Earth that cause ice ages and interglacial periods. Subsequent ocean sediment cores confirmed that they exist and likely were the cause of the ice ages. This is not in dispute.

Here is a map of the greatest extent of the last ice age during the pleistocene:

Notice how much of Asia and Europe was involved. Notice also that this is just the last ice age. Neanderthals lived through several ice ages and interglacials. And during the interglaicials, of course, it was nice and sunny, so no vitamin D deficiency would have been evident, But it doesn't matter anyway, since there is no evidence that Neanderthals had such a deficiency.

 

[Pidgey]

Yes, I'm well aware of the Milankovich cycle theory--it's kinda' well-known due to the AGW controversy. If it's true, it would be an ultimate cause, but the deposition of the huge quantities of ice and snow would be the result of a temperature differential existing between the relatively warmer oceans and the cooler polar regions--think of that as a means of water transport. Anyhow, one of the reasons that we don't find much by way of remains in glacial areas is because the glaciers tend to grind such stuff up.

They talk about the "robust" skeletal structure of Neanderthals, and yet they don't look that robust frankly, bones that are oversized are often less strong--think of Kentucky race horses: strong, fine bones due to the abundant availability of calcium. And look at that extreme expansion at the inferior thoracic aperture of that Neanderthal skeleton on the Wikipedia article--that's an example of enlarged organs. Period. End of story. This person was NOT "robust", "rotund" would be a better word. He, or she, couldn't walk properly upright due to carrying that cantilevered load out front--that's the (chronic)reason for the bass ackwards curvature of the femur and the effects on the feet.

 

[PLC1]

Huh? The milankovitch cycles describe the collective effects of changes in the Earth's movements upon its climate. Milanković mathematically theorised that variations in eccentricity, axial tilt, and precession of the Earth's orbit determined climatic patterns on Earth that cause ice ages and interglacial periods. Subsequent ocean sediment cores confirmed that they exist and likely were the cause of the ice ages. This is not in dispute.

Here is a map of the greatest extent of the last ice age during the pleistocene:

Notice how much of Asia and Europe was involved. Notice also that this is just the last ice age. Neanderthals lived through several ice ages and interglacials. And during the interglaicials, of course, it was nice and sunny, so no vitamin D deficiency would have been evident, But it doesn't matter anyway, since there is no evidence that Neanderthals had such a deficiency.

This is wild speculation, of course, but wouldn't it be ironic if the light skin that has been, or used to be at least, so prized as demonstrating racial superiority turned out to be a result of interbreeding with the Neanderthals? Instead of a mutation, perhaps that light skin that helped with absorbing vitamin D was actually the result of such interbreeding.

Just a wild thought.

 

[orogenicman]

This is wild speculation, of course, but wouldn't it be ironic if the light skin that has been, or used to be at least, so prized as demonstrating racial superiority turned out to be a result of interbreeding with the Neanderthals? Instead of a mutation, perhaps that light skin that helped with absorbing vitamin D was actually the result of such interbreeding.

Just a wild thought.

The only such suggestion I have seen is that Neanderthals have the gene for red hair, and so some have suggested that they might be ancestral to red headed Europeans. That is until it was pointed out that Orangutans have the same gene.

 

[orogenicman]

Yes, I'm well aware of the Milankovich cycle theory--it's kinda' well-known due to the AGW controversy. If it's true, it would be an ultimate cause, but the deposition of the huge quantities of ice and snow would be the result of a temperature differential existing between the relatively warmer oceans and the cooler polar regions--think of that as a means of water transport. Anyhow, one of the reasons that we don't find much by way of remains in glacial areas is because the glaciers tend to grind such stuff up.

They talk about the "robust" skeletal structure of Neanderthals, and yet they don't look that robust frankly, bones that are oversized are often less strong--think of Kentucky race horses: strong, fine bones due to the abundant availability of calcium. And look at that extreme expansion at the inferior thoracic aperture of that Neanderthal skeleton on the Wikipedia article--that's an example of enlarged organs. Period. End of story. This person was NOT "robust", "rotund" would be a better word. He, or she, couldn't walk properly upright due to carrying that cantilevered load out front--that's the (chronic)reason for the bass ackwards curvature of the femur and the effects on the feet.

The skull bones of neanderthals are significantly thicker and denser than that of Homo Sapiens sapiens, as are their long bones. I suspect that a lot of this is due to the fact that, when compared to modern humans, they were likely significantly stronger than us soft-bellied urbanites. They had to be or they couldn't survive such a harsh pleistocene environment. As for your description of one individual, I fail to see the significance, since species are not usually determined on the basis of an single individual, and certainly in the case of the neadnerthal, there is a treasure trove of fossil remains compared to that of other ancient hominids.