Russian/Ukraine rebels likley shoot down civilan plane 295

pocketfullofshells

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After Shooting down a cargo plane , then Russian Air Force Shooting down a Ukraine Jet...Now a Plane with 295 people has been shot down over Ukraine most likely by rebels/russians. Things are going to get bad for Russia I think soon and its closer to war. Rebels are going to get shown no mercy if shown true.
 
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Wouldnt put it past vlad to shoot down a.plane if he could credibly make it seem to have been done by rebels.

Certainly makes it politically easier to wrap up the reacquition quickly.

Going to be tricky to manage the "credibly"part.

In any event business will dry up for air carriers in that corner of the world.

This is an unwelcome escalation. Body counts are getting more and more grim. Think it bodes far worse for ukraine than russia though.
 
odds are Rebels but Russia will be held equally responsible due to the fact that the system most likely used, is Russian, and very high end, and was provided to the rebels that they have nothing to do with by them. Ukraine has Reported that Americans where killed in this attack as well...but not confirmed.

Most likely is it was Rebels by mistake...They did not know what they are firing at or fired at something and it tracked the larger target. Russia would have better training to know what they where shooting at and how it would work, while those they gave it o would not ( outside of Russian Special Forces in the area helping them)

Now its time for the Idiot conspiracy people to say its a false flag attack and link it to the other missing plane from Malaysia .

US Sanctions put in yesterday are going to be weak to what is about to come I think.
 
odds are Rebels but Russia will be held equally responsible due to the fact that the system most likely used, is Russian, and very high end, and was provided to the rebels that they have nothing to do with by them. Ukraine has Reported that Americans where killed in this attack as well...but not confirmed.

Most likely is it was Rebels by mistake...They did not know what they are firing at or fired at something and it tracked the larger target. Russia would have better training to know what they where shooting at and how it would work, while those they gave it o would not ( outside of Russian Special Forces in the area helping them)

Now its time for the Idiot conspiracy people to say its a false flag attack and link it to the other missing plane from Malaysia .

US Sanctions put in yesterday are going to be weak to what is about to come I think.
Haha we shall have to see if katsung chimes in on the maylasia angle.

Dont see russia taking heat unless they pulled the trigger. Even at that sanction are difficult to escalate just becaude europe cant go along with it and risk their energy pipeline.

Russia needs this to end. Dragging it out just muddles things and costs money they dont have.

BO can generally do little and just jab russia with a stick on the cheap. Dead americans may change that and so it is an unwelcome development.

Going to get more intetesting either eay it goes. Kind of a game changer.
 
Haha we shall have to see if katsung chimes in on the maylasia angle.

Dont see russia taking heat unless they pulled the trigger. Even at that sanction are difficult to escalate just becaude europe cant go along with it and risk their energy pipeline.

Russia needs this to end. Dragging it out just muddles things and costs money they dont have.

BO can generally do little and just jab russia with a stick on the cheap. Dead americans may change that and so it is an unwelcome development.

Going to get more intetesting either eay it goes. Kind of a game changer.

They will take the heat as the only thing that the rebels have to have shot it down was given to them by Russia...who of course has not given them any arms and has nothing to do with the rebels...Just like the US did not invade Iraq it must have been blackwater.
 
It's now been proven that it was shot down by a Russian ground-to-air missile ... while it seems to be blamed on the rebels, this particular system takes two years of technical training to aim and shoot ... the rebels supposedly got hold of it two WEEKS ago ... lends credibility to Russian special ops troops working undercover with the dissidents.

But, relax ... this President hasn't got the balls to play hardball ... Putin could blow up Cleveland and Obama would just continue to shake in his boots --- or his golfing shoes.
 
Irrespective of what the facts really are, the world opinion will be guided by perception. Both Russia and the rebels now have egg on their faces. Other countries more likely will now see sanctions as an easier and effective way to quell Russian involvement. Sanctions can work on a large developed country like Russia more than a dingbat country like N. Korea.
Putin could blow up Cleveland and Obama would just continue to shake in his boots --- or his golfing shoes.
GB, that kind of irrelevant inane crap just makes you look like a 10 year old stooge.
 
Irrespective of what the facts really are, the world opinion will be guided by perception. Both Russia and the rebels now have egg on their faces. Other countries more likely will now see sanctions as an easier and effective way to quell Russian involvement. Sanctions can work on a large developed country like Russia more than a dingbat country like N. Korea.

GB, that kind of irrelevant inane crap just makes you look like a 10 year old stooge.
Well as sanctions are quite narrow and nit even directed at the state wouldnt count of them being effected.

Its certainly an embarrasment to them all but really, who is stupid enough to fly through a war zone ? That carrier will be looking at loads of litigation over this.
 
It's now been proven that it was shot down by a Russian ground-to-air missile ... while it seems to be blamed on the rebels, this particular system takes two years of technical training to aim and shoot ... the rebels supposedly got hold of it two WEEKS ago ... lends credibility to Russian special ops troops working undercover with the dissidents.

But, relax ... this President hasn't got the balls to play hardball ... Putin could blow up Cleveland and Obama would just continue to shake in his boots --- or his golfing shoes.

First no it has not been proven...its likely...you should learn the difference. Second what hell do you expect Obama to do? Why don't you shut up or put up a plan...What you want the US to go to war with Russia because it shot down someone else s plane and was backing up the wrong side in a civil war that we are not a part of? But yes the guy who got OBL , helped put Gaddafi in the ground against republican wishes, who was going to his Syrian WMD sites until weak ass republicans cried that they had to authorize it, then did not. The guy who has been taking out targets in Yemen and Pakistan while rand paul cries about it along with your tea bag friends....Your the spineless party....Put up a plan or just shut up and go sit in the back and stop pretending you know anything. Let me guess this is the part where you copy paste someone elses poor idea and pretend you thought of it now because you can't think.
 
Well as sanctions are quite narrow and nit even directed at the state wouldnt count of them being effected.

Its certainly an embarrasment to them all but really, who is stupid enough to fly through a war zone ? That carrier will be looking at loads of litigation over this.

Lots of Carriers where still flying threw it...the great power of Capitalism...it was stupid but cheapest. I guess Rand Paul is saying this is the Free markets way of changing the routs...kill 300 people.
 
Irrespective of what the facts really are, the world opinion will be guided by perception. Both Russia and the rebels now have egg on their faces. Other countries more likely will now see sanctions as an easier and effective way to quell Russian involvement. Sanctions can work on a large developed country like Russia more than a dingbat country like N. Korea.

GB, that kind of irrelevant inane crap just makes you look like a 10 year old stooge.
Even more so given how weak Russia is right now in Economics....its time to put the hammer down on Putin. I would not be shocked to see Ukraine take it one step more if not for the US talking them out of hitting Russian targets ( a small attack like engage a MIG or something on he border. as it just blew up one of their own planes as well. And that was Russia not rebels.

Also I think the rebels are in for a pounding.
 
Escalation is certainly possible.
Challenging MIGs ? Do they have kamikazis in Ukraine ? Might have trouble getting someone to volunteer for that.
Russia has its problems with money but they also own the spigot fir eurozone oil. Do you think they would mind taking the big hit if eurozone did too ? And the ripples from that go worldwide fast.

Tricky situation hardly dies this justice.
 
Irrespective of what the facts really are, the world opinion will be guided by perception. Both Russia and the rebels now have egg on their faces. Other countries more likely will now see sanctions as an easier and effective way to quell Russian involvement. Sanctions can work on a large developed country like Russia more than a dingbat country like N. Korea.

GB, that kind of irrelevant inane crap just makes you look like a 10 year old stooge.


It's called reality ... and proven performance (or lack of it).
 
First no it has not been proven...its likely...you should learn the difference. Second what hell do you expect Obama to do? Why don't you shut up or put up a plan...What you want the US to go to war with Russia because it shot down someone else s plane and was backing up the wrong side in a civil war that we are not a part of? But yes the guy who got OBL , helped put Gaddafi in the ground against republican wishes, who was going to his Syrian WMD sites until weak ass republicans cried that they had to authorize it, then did not. The guy who has been taking out targets in Yemen and Pakistan while rand paul cries about it along with your tea bag friends....Your the spineless party....Put up a plan or just shut up and go sit in the back and stop pretending you know anything. Let me guess this is the part where you copy paste someone elses poor idea and pretend you thought of it now because you can't think.

First of all, it HAS been proven that it was shot down by a Russian BUK missile ... ask Obama. He confirmed it. Please, try to keep up.

Yes, let's do that ... let's discuss Obama's performance.

This is the guy who pressed the 'reset' button with Russia - how well is that working?

This is the guy who mocked Romney when he said that Russia is the greatest geopolitical risk today. Which one is turning out to be right?

This is the guy who removed missile defense systems from eastern Europe, signalling our willingness to abandon our allies in the region.

This is the guy who has removed troops from Eastern Europe, again signalling our willingness to abandon them.

This is the guy who offended our NATO allies by refusing to take action against Libya, Syria, and Russia.

This is the guy that took a relatively stable situation in Iraq, gutted it, and left our allies to die.

This is the guy who was unable to broker a SOFA agreement, even though both parties wanted it, and torpedoed it, at the last moment, by changing his position.

This is the guy who ignored his military advisers, and authorized only a token increase for the surge in Afghanistan.

This is the guy who committed soldiers to Afghanistan, and then with real progress made and completion in sight, summarily pulled them out because of cheap political concerns in the States.

This is the guy who went after Ghaddafi only when his NATO counterparts threatened mutiny if he didn't take action.

This is the guy who has taken absolutely no action - none, nil, nada - despite the violent suppression of the Iraqi and Syrian people by the new Islamic caliphate.

This is the guy who famously takes all the credit for OBL, but yet, let the Pakistani doctor who provided the information that made it possible, in the hands of the enemy.

This is the guy who drew the infamous 'red line in the sand' against Assad, and when Assad ignored him, was unable to muster national or international support (but yet, claims he is willing to 'go it alone' - just him and his pen and phone).

This is the guy who refused to take action, despite numerous requests, to support resistance to the Russian invasion of Belarus.

This is the guy who allowed Russia to annex Crimea and did nothing (bank sanctions - are you serious???).

This is the guy who has allowed the invasion of Texas, and has refused to take action to close the borders.

This is the guy who sued Arizona when they decided the federal government wasn't going to do anything, so they exercised their states' rights.
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Now, as for today's 'situation' - there are lots of things Obama can do - but won't.

First, we have to define what we're talking about. It is naive and ludicrous to call the actions in Ukraine a 'civil war'. Clearly, Russia is providing materiel, weapons, logistic and intelligence support, and personnel to the so-called 'Russian separatists'.

So, what can we do about it? Pick one -

1) We can provide support to the duly elected government of Ukraine - they have asked us for weapons and intelligence support. We have refused.

2) We can signal our displeasure with Russian actions by reversing the idiotic position of not deploying missile defense systems in Poland, etc.

3) We can place US troops in Eastern European countries - in response to invitations from Poland, Germany, Belarus, and Ukraine.

4) We can actually sanction Russia - not its billionaires who couldn't care less, but the Russian banking system and the government itself.

5) We can announce an increased effort to exploit our own oil resources with an absolute goal of increasing exports of oil to Europe, thus damaging Russia's stranglehold.

Now ... you asked for a plan .... there you are. And, what would YOU suggest as alternatives? Oh, I know ... nothing.
 
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Even more so given how weak Russia is right now in Economics....its time to put the hammer down on Putin. I would not be shocked to see Ukraine take it one step more if not for the US talking them out of hitting Russian targets ( a small attack like engage a MIG or something on he border. as it just blew up one of their own planes as well. And that was Russia not rebels.

Also I think the rebels are in for a pounding.

A great example of ignorance in action ...

The Ukrainian military has virtually no anti-aircraft capability, despite repeated requests for equipment from the US. Obama has refused each request. They have several BUK missile systems, but nobody trained on how to operate them. (The Russian training course takes two years to complete)

"A small attack like engage a MIG" ... with what, a rock??? The Ukranian Air Force has a grand total of 180 aircraft in service, virtually all of them old Soviet planes left when the USSR dissolved in 1991.

At the start of the fighting against the insurgents in eastern Ukraine the air force had 9 operational Su-27, only 4 operational, 3 MiG-29S and one MiG-29UB. During the Crimea crisis, 45 MIGs were captured by Russian troops. 37 were returned - all had been demolished and useless.
 
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