Yahweh and Allah. Are they moral and ethical Gods?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Yahweh and Allah. Are they moral and ethical Gods?


Some say we cannot say or know, because it is all myth.


http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2


I think they are wrong as men can judge actions.


I think we can at least know if Yahweh and Allah, and the religions they spawned, are good or evil.


Since God is a Man interpreting God’s words, believers all following a Man.


We invent our Gods and put them above us. But ultimately get all we know of God, and his morality from others around us. Priests and imams interpret and are the spokes in the religious communication network. Those priests and imams are teaching violence against their neighbor instead of love. I do not see that as ethical behavior for any moral religion.


From what you know of Yahweh and Allah, and the religions they have spawned, would you say that those two War loving Gods, as we also love it in their image, good Gods, or would you say they are something else?


Regards

DL

 

[Jason76]

While it is true people cannot prove the existence of Allah or Yahweh, they also cannot disprove the idea. In other words, it seems like an agnostic position would be more reasonable from a scientific viewpoint. Also, we have to wonder if humanistic scientists don't also hold irrational ideas similar to religious ones.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

While it is true people cannot prove the existence of Allah or Yahweh, they also cannot disprove the idea. In other words, it seems like an agnostic position would be more reasonable from a scientific viewpoint. Also, we have to wonder if humanistic scientists don't also hold irrational ideas similar to religious ones.

Logical fallacy.

Does the onus of proof to a positive claim belong to the one making the claim or is it to others to prove him wrong?

If you have wondered if humanistic scientists hold irrational ideas similar to religious ones, what have you found to appease your curiosity or prove you are correct?

Regards
DL

 

[yiostheoy]

While it is true people cannot prove the existence of Allah or Yahweh, they also cannot disprove the idea. In other words, it seems like an agnostic position would be more reasonable from a scientific viewpoint. Also, we have to wonder if humanistic scientists don't also hold irrational ideas similar to religious ones.

The agnostic position certainly seems feasible from an Empirical scientific perspective.

However from a risk perspective the agnostic takes upon them-self (my word for himself/herself) an unhedged position if and when it turns out that there is a God or Gods, and this God or Gods are evaluating people on their choices.

So even as an agnostic you cannot escape from the gamble of being wrong.

 

[yiostheoy]

Yahweh and Allah. Are they moral and ethical Gods?


Some say we cannot say or know, because it is all myth.


http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2


I think they are wrong as men can judge actions.


I think we can at least know if Yahweh and Allah, and the religions they spawned, are good or evil.


Since God is a Man interpreting God’s words, believers all following a Man.


We invent our Gods and put them above us. But ultimately get all we know of God, and his morality from others around us. Priests and imams interpret and are the spokes in the religious communication network. Those priests and imams are teaching violence against their neighbor instead of love. I do not see that as ethical behavior for any moral religion.


From what you know of Yahweh and Allah, and the religions they have spawned, would you say that those two War loving Gods, as we also love it in their image, good Gods, or would you say they are something else?


Regards

DL

YHVH (which we do not really know how to pronounce, although it is unlikely to be Yah-Weh -- more likely is YA-HO-VEH from the phrase from which the word derives) and Allah are merely two out of many world-wide choices available to Theists. Not sure why you picked on these two out of all the world.

YHVH originated with Moses as His prophet around 1450 BCE.

Allah originated with Muhammad as his prophet and Gabriel as his intermediary around 610 AD. I did not read anywhere in the Quran where Muhammad actually meets Allah in person or testifies as an eye witness of his existence. Gabriel is a name stolen from Judaism and Christianity, so you would think Muhammad -- if he ever really existed -- could have picked a more original character to be his archangel -- say perhaps Auriel or one of the other 3 of whom little is yet known.

Islam has all the trappings of counterfeit religion -- a form of clandestine Judaism.

And Judaism is hard pressed to explain why their God abandoned them to the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, and finally the Romans who sacked their temple and burned it to the ground. If you don't believe it go to Jerusalem and look -- there is nothing left but a flat empty grove there now together with a big golden domed mosque.

So I am puzzled why you chose these particular two pseudo deities for your characterization of a God?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

YHVH (which we do not really know how to pronounce, although it is unlikely to be Yah-Weh -- more likely is YA-HO-VEH from the phrase from which the word derives) and Allah are merely two out of many world-wide choices available to Theists. Not sure why you picked on these two out of all the world.

YHVH originated with Moses as His prophet around 1450 BCE.

Allah originated with Muhammad as his prophet and Gabriel as his intermediary around 610 AD. I did not read anywhere in the Quran where Muhammad actually meets Allah in person or testifies as an eye witness of his existence. Gabriel is a name stolen from Judaism and Christianity, so you would think Muhammad -- if he ever really existed -- could have picked a more original character to be his archangel -- say perhaps Auriel or one of the other 3 of whom little is yet known.

Islam has all the trappings of counterfeit religion -- a form of clandestine Judaism.

And Judaism is hard pressed to explain why their God abandoned them to the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, and finally the Romans who sacked their temple and burned it to the ground. If you don't believe it go to Jerusalem and look -- there is nothing left but a flat empty grove there now together with a big golden domed mosque.

So I am puzzled why you chose these particular two pseudo deities for your characterization of a God?

I choose Yahweh because I am in the West an that is the big fellow in these parts. I chose Allah because I think him the most vile to date but still close you Yahweh in terms of immorality.

"Islam has all the trappings of counterfeit religion -- a form of clandestine Judaism."

I agree while also recognizing that Judaism and Christianity are knock-offs from a consolidation of many older religions and myths from Sumer and Egypt.

So does this ex preacher.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

yiostheoy

I did not see you opine directly on the morality of our pair of Gods.

Care to opine?

Regards
DL

 

[yiostheoy]

yiostheoy

I did not see you opine directly on the morality of our pair of Gods.

Care to opine?

Regards
DL

Well YHVH is definitely pro Jewish and there are special rules of usury that do not apply to non Jews. So in that sense Judaism is faulty. A good religion treats all people as equal and nobody in particular as special.

When the Hebrews were escaping Egypt my ancestors were living in the forests of northern Europe worshipping the Sun and Moon. The Sun and Moon shine their light upon everybody equally.

While Islam is just one long anti Semitic and anti Christian rant from a book called the Qran, it has been perverted by the Mullahs into pedophilia for girls and 40 virgins for martyrs. Can you hold a mythical Allah responsible for that? Since Allah clearly does not really exist I think the question is moot.

 

[yiostheoy]

I choose Yahweh because I am in the West an that is the big fellow in these parts. I chose Allah because I think him the most vile to date but still close you Yahweh in terms of immorality.

"Islam has all the trappings of counterfeit religion -- a form of clandestine Judaism."

I agree while also recognizing that Judaism and Christianity are knock-offs from a consolidation of many older religions and myths from Sumer and Egypt.

So does this ex preacher.

Regards
DL

Zoroastrianism is probably the oldest surviving religion and both Judaism and Islam are knock offs from it, correct.

Judaism is monotheistic, as is Islam, whereas Christianity definitely has a "godhead" of 3 persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus the Lord and Savior of Christianity does quote from the Hebrew Tenakh a lot, however this does not constitute Christian doctrine. He came up with his own doctrines in the Sermon On The Mount which are completely different from Judaism. If YHVH is also a Christian God then He would have had to change his mind a lot with the birth of Christ.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Well YHVH is definitely pro Jewish and there are special rules of usury that do not apply to non Jews. So in that sense Judaism is faulty. A good religion treats all people as equal and nobody in particular as special.

When the Hebrews were escaping Egypt my ancestors were living in the forests of northern Europe worshipping the Sun and Moon. The Sun and Moon shine their light upon everybody equally.

While Islam is just one long anti Semitic and anti Christian rant from a book called the Qran, it has been perverted by the Mullahs into pedophilia for girls and 40 virgins for martyrs. Can you hold a mythical Allah responsible for that? Since Allah clearly does not really exist I think the question is moot.

Neither does Yahweh but good enough.

Your view of equality is a Gnostic Christian staple and we have tied equality to righteousness. So on equality, we are one.

I am a man. I personally reject equality for myself and women and think the law of the land should be the same as the law of the sea where women and children are placed above men. I would not bring wives and families down to my level, so to speak.

Mind you, with Toxic Feminism and Masculinity going on, I might have to revise that thinking.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Zoroastrianism is probably the oldest surviving religion and both Judaism and Islam are knock offs from it, correct.

Judaism is monotheistic, as is Islam, whereas Christianity definitely has a "godhead" of 3 persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus the Lord and Savior of Christianity does quote from the Hebrew Tenakh a lot, however this does not constitute Christian doctrine. He came up with his own doctrines in the Sermon On The Mount which are completely different from Judaism. If YHVH is also a Christian God then He would have had to change his mind a lot with the birth of Christ.

Christianity calls the idiotic Trinity concept one God and call themselves monotheist.

I also see Judaism as being more like Gnostic Christianity as their oral tradition says that a Rabbi can overrule the written tradition and thus puts God where he should be. Within us.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Regards
DL

 

[yiostheoy]

Christianity calls the idiotic Trinity concept one God and call themselves monotheist.

I also see Judaism as being more like Gnostic Christianity as their oral tradition says that a Rabbi can overrule the written tradition and thus puts God where he should be. Within us.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Regards
DL

The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and the various Protestant Churches have strayed from Biblical Christianity in their characterization of it as "monotheistic". It may have been monotheistic before the resurrection of Jesus and the subsequent arrival of the Holy Spirit, but it has been polytheistic ever since then -- spring 33 A.D. -- when it added two more Gods -- Jesus as Lord and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and the various Protestant Churches have strayed from Biblical Christianity in their characterization of it as "monotheistic". It may have been monotheistic before the resurrection of Jesus and the subsequent arrival of the Holy Spirit, but it has been polytheistic ever since then -- spring 33 A.D. -- when it added two more Gods -- Jesus as Lord and the Holy Spirit.

That is not what I hear.

All those I see flying the cross have Jesus as their scapegoat and all think of him as the son of God and a part of the Godhead.

I guess you have been chatting with some sects that I have missed in my travels.

As to the Trinity, it was not adopted by Christianity till Constantine forced the vote to his way with threats of death to those who opposed it. Tyat was about 380 CE.

-------

Here is the TLDR version.


Originally Posted by animefan48

Well, the reality is most Christians do buy into the trinity doctrine because of persecution of the early Gnostics and non-Trinitarians, and the religious councils were dissenters were forced to agree to a Trinitarian theology. Many Unitarian and Universalist theologies argue that when Jesus said he was the way, he meant that he was an example of how to live to be united/reunited with God. As for the name, God does give other names for himself including the Alpha and Omega, as well as some believe a name that should not be written (or even spoken I believe). Honestly, I think using the name I Am That I Am would just be confusing and convoluted, seriously. I seriously do not believe that it is a continuation of Gnostic/mystical/Unitarian suppression. Even the Gnostic and mystical traditions within Islam and Christianity do not tend to use that name, and among the 99 Names of Allah, I did not find that one. Also, many Rastafarians believe that the Holy Spirit lives in humans and will sometimes say I and I instead of we, yet they don't seem to use the name I Am for God/Jah either, so I really don't think it can be related to suppressing mystical and Gnostic interpretations. I think that originally oppressing those ideas and decreeing them heretical are quite enough, the early Church did such a good job that after the split many Protestant groups continued to condemn mystical and later Gnostic sects and theologies.







Yup, the bishops voted and it was settled for all time!!1 (Some say the preliminary votes were 150 something to 140 something in favor of the trinity)

But then Constantine stepped in: After a prolonged and inconclusive debate, the impatient Constantine intervened to force an end to the conflict by demanding the adoption of the creed. The vote was taken under threat of exile for any who did not support the decision favored by Constantine. (And later, they fully endorsed the trinity idea when it all happened again at the council of Constantinople in AD 381, where only Trinitarians were invited to attend. Surprise! They also managed to carry a vote in favor of the Trinity.)


http://home.pacific.net.au/~amaxwell/bdigest/bd12bbs.tx



Even a Trinitarian scholar admits the Earliest & Original beliefs were NOT Trinitarian!


The trinity formulation is a later corruption away from the earliest & original beliefs!


"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".

Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180


"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament".

R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173, 1980


The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306.


"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299.


"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).


"Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).


Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . .

(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)


Constantine’s Victory Arch says it all.


http://www.simchajtv.com/movie-secrets-of-christianity-selling-christianity/


Regards

DL

 

[Jason76]

Well YHVH is definitely pro Jewish and there are special rules of usury that do not apply to non Jews. So in that sense Judaism is faulty. A good religion treats all people as equal and nobody in particular as special.

When the Hebrews were escaping Egypt my ancestors were living in the forests of northern Europe worshipping the Sun and Moon. The Sun and Moon shine their light upon everybody equally.

While Islam is just one long anti Semitic and anti Christian rant from a book called the Qran, it has been perverted by the Mullahs into pedophilia for girls and 40 virgins for martyrs. Can you hold a mythical Allah responsible for that? Since Allah clearly does not really exist I think the question is moot.

Some say the original plan was for all people to be treated the same, but most of the world became pagan. Therefore, God wanted to use one people, the Jews, as a light to the world. Finally, according to Christians, God is now looking at all people more equally, at least as long as they've converted.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Some say the original plan was for all people to be treated the same, but most of the world became pagan. Therefore, God wanted to use one people, the Jews, as a light to the world. Finally, according to Christians, God is now looking at all people more equally, at least as long as they've converted.

I think the Jews were on the right path to a decent theology/philosophy before Christianity took over their religion.

A shame as Jews were a lot brighter than Christians and still are. Or so it seems.

Regards
DL