$2330 per tax payer

Andy, are you Libs and Gen?

I have often suspected schizophrenia but this is a new dimension.

The banks have a duty to lend cautiously.

They know more about how money works and how people deafult than the borrowers do.

And when they throw caution to the wind and lend recklessly they are effectively putting all their money on zero.

It might come up and the pay off will be big but you know you will probably lose the lot.
 
Werbung:
Yes, yes, and yes, although not in the way you're thinking.

No, not in any way.

Look closer. Look at people's families. Look at people who've never had a whole lot, who just wanted to have a house of their own.

These people are victims of circumstance. Yes, they're victims of their own actions - but those actions are the result of something. It's simplistic to look at them and just say, "Well, that's it, then."

That isn't to say that they should not have to deal with the consequences of their actions. They should.

First, you assume much about the 'people's families'. Some perhaps, but I know of quite a few that make pretty good money. They simple flat out, no excuses, got a loan for more house than they could afford. That's it. Many had homes before this, and they though well gee I can want that $350,000 home over there... and they can't afford that.

I know a guy right now... that bought more house than he can afford. He told me... well I'll be earning more soon. No no no... when you are earning more, then buy a house that expensive. If he loses his job, or gets sick, or if anything at all happens, he's going to be in foreclosure. Honestly, he might end up in foreclosure if nothing happens. He simply can't afford this house. Now I hope he does start earning more, but he has NO ONE to blame if he ends up broke.

But at the same time, those of us who are in better positions should have a heart and not turn up our noses at them. Everyone messes up.

This isn't about turning up our noses. This isn't about how we relate to people on a personal level. I have a friend who came here from Somalia and has no family. I fixed their car when it broke. I paid for their move when they changed apartments. I paid for the rental truck, and I did many other things. But they didn't 'expect' me to bail them out. Nor did they demand it from me.

A government bail out, is the absolute compulsory confiscation of ones money for pay off for another's choices. It's wrong, immoral, and unethical. It's not being caring, it's being a tyrant. You don't see politicians giving their own money to these people. No, they steal it from others and give it out. Obama was in the top 5% of wage earners in the entire country. You think he's giving his money to bail these people out? Not a chance. He's going to take it from us, the tax payers.
 
Andy, are you Libs and Gen?

Are you Dawkins?

I have often suspected schizophrenia but this is a new dimension.

I've suspected hypocrisy, and you've never disappointed me.

The banks have a duty to lend cautiously.

Oh shocking news. Thanks for coming on and telling us the obvious.

They know more about how money works and how people deafult than the borrowers do.

No excuses please. Are you telling me that YOU do not know that when you borrow money, that you must pay it back monthly by an amount normally in correlation to how much was borrowed? Are you saying that if you earned $20-$40 thousand a year, you would not know that you can't afford a $200K to $400K dollar home? What, is basic math too hard?

And when they throw caution to the wind and lend recklessly they are effectively putting all their money on zero.

It might come up and the pay off will be big but you know you will probably lose the lot.

No kidding? Really?

This is irrelevant. No one said the banks should lend to everyone. No one suggested the banks should not take a loss. Why do you think I'm against the bail out? We should not bail out anyone for anything. We should bail out the people who got the loan they couldn't repay, and we should bail out the bank that gave the loan.

That said, you still claimed it was "mean" to not want to bail people out of their mistakes, so I want the money you owe me by your own words. Put your money where your mouth is, and pay off my debt. Are you hypocrite or not? How about you just admit to being a hypocrite. We both know you are not going to follow through with what you claim to believe. I'm going to refer to you as hypocrite from here on.
 
Actually yes I have. The AIG bail out, is really just a socialist take over. It's not a bail out because in the long run, the contracts AIG has are still worth as much as they ever were. The problem is the accounting standards the government enforces, has changed how those contracts are valued on a budget.

In other words, the 'loses' companies are posting, are all on paper. In reality, no actual money has been lost. But because budgets are what get posted to share holders, and because share holders cause the price of company stocks to go up or down, the company has lost stock value, and this is what government is banking on.

Their going to take over this company, whose value dropped due to their own policies, and then reap the benefit of the assets and future contracts the company has.



Let's assume he is right. Here's what is going to happen. Government is going to loot the company and take the "wind-fall profits" and blow them on government programs which won't help anyone, or at most a special selected few voting groups, and of course pay backs to political supporters. For Obama that would be Chase and Goldman Sachs. Of course, no one is going to get a dividend check, and Federal government will never be 'responsible'.

Even when Bill Clinton raided Social Security to make it look like he had 'balanced the budget' even when we were actually borrowing more money than ever... what did they do with the supposed 'surplus'? Savings? Pay off debt? Nope, they spent it on crap. Obama will do the same.

Unfortunately, I think you're right about much of what you are saying.

If the "socialization" of AIG pays dividends to the government, which is a big if, then the feds will most likely blow it on government spending rather than try to pay down the debt, build infrastructure, or anything that will actually be a benefit to the country.

You seem to be picking out Democratic presidents as big spenders, however. Do you seriously think that it will be different if McCain gets elected? Even if the Republicans make a comeback in the Congress, will the outcome be any different?

You mention Clinton as the raider of SS, but didn't every president since LBJ do the same, both Republicans and Democrats? Bush II raided $177 billion from that fund in '07, after all, and still wound up borrowing another $300 billion to run the federal bureaucracy.

Neither party is the party of small government and fiscal responsibility.
 
Sounds like a case of blame the victim. The borrowers, in large part, are still going to lose their homes. Some small number of them may be helped, but not many. Their credit is still going to be ruined.

I'm not even in agreement with the premise that the mortgage defaults are the primary cause of the credit crises. People tend to look for simple explanations that simple solutions can be applied to. The sub-prime fiasco is one of many causes of the current situation. If we deal with it as "the" cause of the credit meltdown, we'll be right back in the same situation,(only worse) in the very near future.

You made a very valid point here I feel.

What Libsmasher fails to take into account is this:

When first time buyers for example approach a mortgage broker or bank etc to take out a mortgage, they often have little knowledge (especially young couples) of how the housing market works.

So they tend to take the higher authority (banks, mortgage brokers) at their word. One could always, (until the last decade or so) trust the word of ones bank manager, the absolute epitome of respectability, this is still unfortunately, how many see such institutions.

If a bank, or mortgage broker tells a first time buyer that they can in fact afford the mortgage on a specific home, who are they to argue?

One naively (first time buyers especially) assumes that the financial industry knows how to calculate, re: basic maths at the very least.

Of course, in an ideal world such first time buyers will have done their homework, will understand how basic finance works (or should work), but unfortunately, many are totally unaware for the most part.

This situation has been responsible for many buyers being lulled into a false sense of security. It is wholly unjust to place the blame on the buyer alone.

There are multiple reasons why the proposed solution President Bush advocates cannot work long term (although I quite understand why he (his admin) has resorted to such measures).

This injection of money to save banks etc. (whose practices over the last decade have, let us not be mistaken, been quite, quite dreadful and without doubt fueled by obscene greed) can only stave off a crash for a period of time, common sense dictates this to be so in my personal opinion.

By economically propping up a flagging housing market, the tax payer is supporting a system of hugely over inflated real-estate prices, whether this system has worked to his/her personal economic advantage or not.

This in itself seems morally inexcusable, as the one tangible thing people really need is a roof over their heads.

Apart from that, you can see that the measures proposed, in terms of the real estate correction, means a crash is simply being 'staved off'

Without similar 'creative' debt devices kicking off this whole cycle once more, a large sector of the populace will simply find themselves unable to afford any sort of roof over their head.

Additionally, higher real-estate prices coupled with higher taxation to pay off the proposed 'bail-out bill', will reduce the consumers economic capacity to consume .. which equates to approx 75% of the economy.

To add further 'fuel' to the fire, the cost of all types of domestic fuel and food seem to be, despite the occasional drop, continuing their upward trend.

Although these are consumer items, they're never going to lead to sustainable economic growth, that is fact.

You cannot simply go on increasing personal debt without a corresponding increase in salaries (salaries have barely risen in the last decade).

If the sump is emptying faster than it's filling, then the sump will run dry, to me this is obvious. So debt is not a possibility for continued increases in consumption, since eventually, not only will the individual be faced with the prospect of never being able to pay off his/her debts, but they won't even be able to afford to even service the debts any more.

This leaves the consumer with his/her ever shrinking disposable income to carry on consuming with.

Taxes, real-estate, fuel, food, current debt levels and an all but stagnant income, means this is an ever dwindling resource.

With the consumer, left with little or no economic capacity to consume, the impact on the economy is of course, reduced demand, which means reduced employment (in the retail sector especially), which means a downward lever on salaries, which means less economic capacity to consume ... 'hello vicious circle, hello tail-spin'.

Each person in the US will have to pay extra taxes to pay off this enormous debt on top of the gigantic debt you are already sitting upon, this equates to even less disposable income.

The markets have to be allowed to correct, if you stave it off, it just means even more financial heartache further down the line.
 
You made a very valid point here I feel.

Not going to respond to the counter-argument I made? :) Generally we leave the cheerleading posts here to Top Gun.

What Libsmasher fails to take into account is this:

When first time buyers for example approach a mortgage broker or bank etc to take out a mortgage, they often have little knowledge (especially young couples) of how the housing market works.

So they tend to take the higher authority (banks, mortgage brokers) at their word. One could always, (until the last decade or so) trust the word of ones bank manager, the absolute epitome of respectability, this is still unfortunately, how many see such institutions.

If a bank, or mortgage broker tells a first time buyer that they can in fact afford the mortgage on a specific home, who are they to argue?

One naively (first time buyers especially) assumes that the financial industry knows how to calculate, re: basic maths at the very least.

Of course, in an ideal world such first time buyers will have done their homework, will understand how basic finance works (or should work), but unfortunately, many are totally unaware for the most part.

What a load of BS. When I was ready to buy a house, I didn't know squat about any aspect of it. The first thing I did is read THREE books on home financing - I knew it backwards and forwards. When I encountered sales people who didn't know their stuff, I dropped them like a rock. In my current home that I bought new, I demanded to know the history of any toxic dumps in the area. I checked US geological survey maps to see what the earth quake zones were, and what the historical flooding info was (I live on a 500 year flood plain). I demanded to do a radon test before I would take possession. I read the covenants. conditions, and restrictions from beginning to end, and it is 50 pages. I warned lenders that I didn't want conditions such as pre-payment penalties. Before I moved in, me and the gf went over the house with a microscope eye and got a few minor issues corrected. I came from 50 miles away almost every weekend during the building phase and checked what was going on in my house. At one point, after checking the tract blueprints, I and a neighbor-to-be discovered that the houses were supposed to have pantries that didn't seem like they were being built. The salesperson tried to handwave it away, but we went to see the construction supervisor, and he agreed we were right. I've never signed a document I haven't read and understood. I ask lots of questions and demand real answers.

Sooooooo ..... wanna go through life like a trusting moron and get taken advantage of? Then you'll deserve what you get. One of my favorite ideas about trust was on the signs of old-time diners: "In God we trust - all others pay cash."
 
Not going to respond to the counter-argument I made? :) Generally we leave the cheerleading posts here to Top Gun.



What a load of BS. When I was ready to buy a house, I didn't know squat about any aspect of it. The first thing I did is read THREE books on home financing - I knew it backwards and forwards. When I encountered sales people who didn't know their stuff, I dropped them like a rock. In my current home that I bought new, I demanded to know the history of any toxic dumps in the area. I checked US geological survey maps to see what the earth quake zones were, and what the historical flooding info was (I live on a 500 year flood plain). I demanded to do a radon test before I would take possession. I read the covenants. conditions, and restrictions from beginning to end, and it is 50 pages. I warned lenders that I didn't want conditions such as pre-payment penalties. Before I moved in, me and the gf went over the house with a microscope eye and got a few minor issues corrected. I came from 50 miles away almost every weekend during the building phase and checked what was going on in my house. At one point, after checking the tract blueprints, I and a neighbor-to-be discovered that the houses were supposed to have pantries that didn't seem like they were being built. The salesperson tried to handwave it away, but we went to see the construction supervisor, and he agreed we were right. I've never signed a document I haven't read and understood. I ask lots of questions and demand real answers.

Sooooooo ..... wanna go through life like a trusting moron and get taken advantage of? Then you'll deserve what you get. One of my favorite ideas about trust was on the signs of old-time diners: "In God we trust - all others pay cash."

Thank you for the very long, 'all about me' post (such self obsession by the way is rarely interesting to the reader).

You really do appear to act like you are GOD to be honest, a nasty little sin on your part if I may say so.

Such a bitter and almost bordering on hysterical denunciation of everyone for not being as intelligent and as superior as you clearly think you are, is rather disturbing.

Just because YOU do, or did all of the above, does not mean that a section of vulnerable people who do,or did not, are lesser persons than yourself.

Your black and white attitude appears to suggest you have a very parocial mentality and are an extremely bitter person.

It appears to prevent you from seeing that for all the 'stupidity' displayed by the consumer, equal if not more stupidity and recklessness was shown by those who are supposed to know better and for all intents and purposes to abide by and carry out a clear code of practice, aka the finance industry.

Your taxes will not save the 'stupid' consumer, but they will be used to ensure that asses of the grubby little crooks who are ultimately responsible for this God awful mess can remain temporarily solvent and maybe even make another short term killing out of the ultimate misery of others.

I am sick and tired dealing with little ****s, who preside over their own little worlds, that consist of me, me and only me, who do not know their ass from their elbow when you get to the bones of it, who are all bloody noise, all bloody mouth and absolutely no bloody trousers.

It is people with your mindset, who enabled such grubby little crooks to flourish in the bloody first place. Uneducated, insular dickheads and complete knobs, pure and simple.
 
Pickin on Libs... Why don't you guys pick on someone your own size?
Oh wait, you already are... :rolleyes:

I laid out the TRUTH and the Left has avoided it like the plauge, prefering to attack Libs and his knee-jerk diatribes:

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63180&postcount=9

Government imposed the CRA on Banks, Barney Frank and his fellow Democrats are the ones who refused to enforce standards or reform the system.... All involved should be run out of Congress but instead you guys want to give everyone with a (D) in front of their name a big 'ol pass, a slap on the back for doing a great job, and grant them continually increasing power in our Government.
 
Pickin on Libs... Why don't you guys pick on someone your own size?
Oh wait, you already are... :rolleyes:

I laid out the TRUTH and the Left has avoided it like the plauge, prefering to attack Libs and his knee-jerk diatribes:

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63180&postcount=9

Government imposed the CRA on Banks, Barney Frank and his fellow Democrats are the ones who refused to enforce standards or reform the system.... All involved should be run out of Congress but instead you guys want to give everyone with a (D) in front of their name a big 'ol pass, a slap on the back for doing a great job, and grant them continually increasing power in our Government.

I am not 'The Left' for a start and the little **** deserves all the 'controlled' venom I threw/spat in his direction, he hasn't got a bloody clue.
 
Pickin on Libs... Why don't you guys pick on someone your own size?
Oh wait, you already are... :rolleyes:

I laid out the TRUTH and the Left has avoided it like the plauge, prefering to attack Libs and his knee-jerk diatribes:

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63180&postcount=9

Government imposed the CRA on Banks, Barney Frank and his fellow Democrats are the ones who refused to enforce standards or reform the system.... All involved should be run out of Congress but instead you guys want to give everyone with a (D) in front of their name a big 'ol pass, a slap on the back for doing a great job, and grant them continually increasing power in our Government.


Yes, you laid it out quite well. If one follows your links, this emerges:
in 2003, Frank opposed Bush administration and Congressional Republican efforts for the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis.[28] Under the plan a new agency would have been created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry. "These two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis," Frank said. He added, "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing."[28]

So, no, the Democrats can hardly be said to have made the right decisions in this case.

As I already pointed out in another thread, McCain warned about Fanny Mae and Freddy Mack three years ago, and tried to get legislation passed to prevent the collapse then.

But, I also went back and looked at the posts on this thread, and don't see anyone giving the Democrats a pass, certainly not Libsmasher?:confused:

Of course, Libs knee jerk diatribes are easy enough to attack.
 
Yes, you laid it out quite well. If one follows your links, this emerges:


So, no, the Democrats can hardly be said to have made the right decisions in this case.

As I already pointed out in another thread, McCain warned about Fanny Mae and Freddy Mack three years ago, and tried to get legislation passed to prevent the collapse then.

But, I also went back and looked at the posts on this thread, and don't see anyone giving the Democrats a pass, certainly not Libsmasher?:confused:

Of course, Libs knee jerk diatribes are easy enough to attack.

I didn't attack the little **** because it was easy, I attacked the little **** because he does'nt have a clue.

It also makes me smile when people such as yourself and Gensenca use the very real possibility of the US going right down the proverbial pan with all the resulting implications and repercussions to try to score partisan political points. That is almost as stupid as some of Lib's posts.

I presume you do understand the gravity of the situation you find yourselves in?

You do realise that you are actually sitting on the edge of a massive black hole?

I wonder you see, because it appears that what's ultimately consuming you is finding any opportunity to blame the opposition.

You buffoons are ripe for another raping if the truth be told. Get a grip for ****s sake.
 
I didn't attack the little **** because it was easy, I attacked the little **** because he does'nt have a clue.

It also makes me smile when people such as yourself and Gensenca use the very real possibility of the US going right down the proverbial pan with all the resulting implications and repercussions to try to score partisan political points. That is almost as stupid as some of Lib's posts.

Which party did you think I was trying to score partisan points for?

The current mess is a bi partisan mess, with a bipartisan squabble over how best to fix it. A Republican president being opposed by Republicans in the House, while Democrats are for his ideas is quite an interesting development, don't you think?

And when Genseca posts:

All involved should be run out of Congress but instead you guys want to give everyone with a (D) in front of their name a big 'ol pass, a slap on the back for doing a great job, and grant them continually increasing power in our Government.

and I take the time to point out that his statement is a huge straw man, as no one actually said that everyone with a D in front of their name has been given a pass, how is that scoring partisan points?

Actually, I do agree that all involved need to be run out of Congress, but I don't give a rat's *** what letter follows their name. Personally, I'd like to fire the lot of them and start over. The federal government is broke, and it is broken, and needs to be seriously pared back and revised.

Is that a Democratic value, or a Republican one? I'm really not sure.
 
I apologise to you PLC. I totally misread your motives here, that was remiss of me and also due to frustration and anger on my part.

As far as Gensenca is concerned my original stance remains.
 
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I apologise to you PLC. I totally misread your motives here, that was remiss of me and also due to frustration and anger on my part.

As far as Gensenca is concerned my original stance remains.

Whew. Having read what you posted about Libsmasher, I didn't want to incur your wrath.

I was the opposite of your screen name reading that post, BTW, and am anxiously awaiting his response.
 
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