Intelligent Design

It must by necessity be a being. And that being must of necessity be all-powerful, since it must have the ability to actualize the potential of anything that is. "And this we call God."
Speaking of assertions without backing logic.... Why does it need to be a deity? Furthermore once you can demonstrate that only a deity could be the initial cause you must the be able to demonstrate that the deity is in fact Yahweh. Needless to say you have a lot of work to do for that argument


By contrast, the argument is a demonstration of proof -- it having been made, it is incumbent on those who disagree with it to demonstrate either that the premise is false or that conclusion does not follow logically from it.

The proof is incomplete.



That is an assertion, not an argument.

Not really your initial assertion was unsupported and to me the absolute absurdity seemed self-evident. One's potential is not contingent on another entity otherwise you would not have to work at all to realize it. You would merely have to wait for your skydaddy to make you the MVP in the NBA, no need for long practices and actual work.



Again, that is an assertion, not an argument.
Actually no it is well known that in logic if one of the premises is shown to be false the conclusion is not to be relied upon.



Once again, that is an assertion, not an argument.

Actually no it isn't, pretty well known fact. Aquinas didn't ever question the existence of a deity he merely attempted to prove his existed. Thus he made a conclusion and then attempted to use logic to justify it, a completely backwards methodology.
 
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Speaking of assertions without backing logic.... Why does it need to be a deity? Furthermore once you can demonstrate that only a deity could be the initial cause you must the be able to demonstrate that the deity is in fact Yahweh. Needless to say you have a lot of work to do for that argument

What is a deity but a being that is omnipotent?

That the unmoved mover (and first cause, and supreme intelligence) must be a being, and must be all powerful, follows logically from the argument. That there is also only one unmoved mover also follows.

What else would the unmoved mover be but a single, all-powerful being?

One's potential is not contingent on another entity otherwise you would not have to work at all to realize it. You would merely have to wait for your skydaddy to make you the MVP in the NBA, no need for long practices and actual work.

That is not what the distinction between act and potency means. I am using "entity" to refer to anything which is capable of changing or causing change, which is what the argument is in reference to.

Suppose my eye twitches involuntarily. It is not enough for me to say that it moved itself -- I would (obviously) conclude that some chance firing of motor neurons caused it to twitch. That is, I would conclude that my motor neurons actualized the potential of my eye to twitch.

Now the question is -- what actualized the potential of my motor neurons to actualize the potential of my eye's movement?

Actually no it is well known that in logic if one of the premises is shown to be false the conclusion is not to be relied upon.

You have yet to demonstrate that the premise is false.

Actually no it isn't, pretty well known fact. Aquinas didn't ever question the existence of a deity he merely attempted to prove his existed. Thus he made a conclusion and then attempted to use logic to justify it, a completely backwards methodology.

If that is the case, then surely it is a relatively easy thing to do to point out the flaw in the argument.
 
What is a deity but a being that is omnipotent?
Not all deities are omnipotent.

That the unmoved mover (and first cause, and supreme intelligence) must be a being, and must be all powerful, follows logically from the argument. That there is also only one unmoved mover also follows.
Why? Maybe you should try justifying a claim every once and a while.

What else would the unmoved mover be but a single, all-powerful being?
Energy? Fairies? Witches? Wizards? Ogres? Celestial Tea Pots? Santa Clause? The Easter Bunny? Unicorns? Myself? There are an infinite number of possibilities you most prove that is can only be Yahweh for the premise to work.


hat is not what the distinction between act and potency means. I am using "entity" to refer to anything which is capable of changing or causing change, which is what the argument is in reference to.

You haven't addressed the point try again.

Suppose my eye twitches involuntarily. It is not enough for me to say that it moved itself -- I would (obviously) conclude that some chance firing of motor neurons caused it to twitch. That is, I would conclude that my motor neurons actualized the potential of my eye to twitch.

Is their a point somewhere?

Now the question is -- what actualized the potential of my motor neurons to actualize the potential of my eye's movement?

Really? Are you arguing an eye twitch can't happen without divine intervention? This is laughable.



You have yet to demonstrate that the premise is false.

You haven't demonstrated its validity the burden of proof as previously established is on the claimant.


If that is the case, then surely it is a relatively easy thing to do to point out the flaw in the argument.

Sure 3 ≠ 1

all done
 
Not all deities are omnipotent.

As I will shortly demonstrate, there is only one unmoved mover, and it is omnipotent.

Perhaps you mean that not all historical conceptions of deities entail omnipotency. This is because those conceptions are false.

Why? Maybe you should try justifying a claim every once and a while.

My apologies; I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that you were already familiar with the argument, given that you were arguing that it is wrong.

The unmoved mover argument is concerned with why things change (motion, in classical times, carried with it the connotation of any change, not merely a change in position). Suppose I am pushing a rock along the ground with a stick held in my hand.

Obviously, the rock is not moving itself. It is being moved by the stick. And obviously, the stick is not moving itself, either -- it is being moved by my arm. My arm is moving it because motor neurons in my arm are firing. Those neurons are firing because electrical signals from the nervous system instruct it to. My nervous system emits those signals because my frontal cortex instructs it to. And so on, up and up through elementary layers of reality -- through laws of gravitation and conduction, the weak and strong force, that govern the mechanical operations of the brain.

In each case, the movement (change) in one thing is initiated by something outside itself. Again, the rock is moved by the stick, the stick by my arm, my arm by motor neurons, motor neurons by electrical signals, etc. This is not an ordering per accidens, the way a father has a son who in turn has a son. Rather it is an ordering per se, in which each movement of an object occurs solely because it was compelled to by another movement somewhere up the causal chain.

Obviously, nothing can cause itself to change. A rock would not spontaneously start moving; it would move because it was pushed, or because gravity pulled it down a slope, or some similar effect. And also obviously, no such chain can be without a beginning (although it need not necessarily have an end): it must be started at some point. Hence, an unmoved mover. Because it must be the first thing in this causal chain, it cannot have potential to be anything else -- it must be pure being, or pure actuality (if not, then it would need to have ITS potential to actualize other things actualized by something else and therefore it would not be the start of the causal chain).

Now (and here we veer into the First Cause argument), it is also the case that a thing cannot actualize something's potential except by endowing it with some feature of itself. For instance, a lighter can only actualize a thing's potential to burn or melt or become warm; it cannot actualize its potential to become cold. Likewise, water can actualize, say, a sugar pill's potential to dissolve; it cannot cause it to turn into something else entirely, like an apple.

If this is the case, then anything which actualizes a thing's potential must have derived its ability to actualize from something higher up the chain, which in turn derived that ability from something higher up the chain. Since we've already established that this chain ends (begins, rather) in an Unmoved Mover, it follows logically that that being has the power to do anything which is capable of being done, because it is from that mover that all actualizing power in the universe ultimately derives. Hence, omnipotence (of which omniscience is a component).

And there is said to be only one First Cause/Unmoved Mover because to establish a distinction between two things is to imply deficiency in one and supremacy in the other. For instance, if John is taller than Jim, than Jim is deficient in height; he has unrealized potentiality in terms of his height. To have a deficiency is to have unrealized potentiality, and the Unmoved Mover, being purely actuality, has no potentiality at all.

Bear in mind, this is merely an argument for the existence of a (single, omnipotent) God. It is not, as you have noted, necessarily an argument for the Christian conception of God -- but then not even Aquinas himself asserted as much. It is, however, the basis on which natural law theory (and thus Christianity as a whole) is built.

But once you have established that there is an all-powerful God, the rest is all questions of technical details, anyway.

Obviously you would benefit from a better reading by a more talented writer, which is why I recommended Feser's book.

Really? Are you arguing an eye twitch can't happen without divine intervention? This is laughable.

I am arguing that it is impossible for a thing to cause itself to happen, since for it to do so it would have to exist in that state already.

I am also arguing that it is impossible to have a causal chain that has no beginning (though it is distinctly possible for it to have no end).

What this means is that the Unmoved Mover argument is not, as Dawkins and other atheists fraudulently (or ignorantly) misrepresent it, an argument for a temporal first cause -- that God created the universe at some distant point in the past. It is an argument that God is sustaining the universe in every moment, and that without his active effort to do so, the universe would cease to exist.
 
As I will shortly demonstrate, there is only one unmoved mover, and it is omnipotent.

Perhaps you mean that not all historical conceptions of deities entail omnipotency. This is because those conceptions are false.

All conceptions of deities are false including your imaginary genocidal skydaddy.

My apologies; I assumed (obviously incorrectly) that you were already familiar with the argument, given that you were arguing that it is wrong.
You first have to make an argument for me to be familiar with it. Short declarative statements an argument does not make.

The unmoved mover argument is concerned with why things change (motion, in classical times, carried with it the connotation of any change, not merely a change in position). Suppose I am pushing a rock along the ground with a stick held in my hand.

Obviously, the rock is not moving itself. It is being moved by the stick. And obviously, the stick is not moving itself, either -- it is being moved by my arm. My arm is moving it because motor neurons in my arm are firing. Those neurons are firing because electrical signals from the nervous system instruct it to. My nervous system emits those signals because my frontal cortex instructs it to. And so on, up and up through elementary layers of reality -- through laws of gravitation and conduction, the weak and strong force, that govern the mechanical operations of the brain.

You see this is where your argument is absolute rubbish it declares everything that but you will make an exception for a bearded desert myth on the cloud, he does not need a cause? Something as simple as a rock moving needs a cause but not this guy sitting on a cloud with his naughty and nice list?

In each case, the movement (change) in one thing is initiated by something outside itself. Again, the rock is moved by the stick, the stick by my arm, my arm by motor neurons, motor neurons by electrical signals, etc. This is not an ordering per accidens, the way a father has a son who in turn has a son. Rather it is an ordering per se, in which each movement of an object occurs solely because it was compelled to by another movement somewhere up the causal chain.

blah blah blah... Your repeating yourself.

Obviously, nothing can cause itself to change.

Firstly our neurons are constantly firing without cause, atoms are vibrating without cause. Secondly I find it interesting that you would say "nothing" but make an exception for Yahweh this is special pleading and extremely dishonest.

A rock would not spontaneously start moving;
It is vibrating on the atomic level.

it would move because it was pushed, or because gravity pulled it down a slope, or some similar effect. And also obviously, no such chain can be without a beginning (although it need not necessarily have an end): it must be started at some point. Hence, an unmoved mover.
There was a beginning? But you declare your god eternal? I think you need to make up your mind.

Because it must be the first thing in this causal chain, it cannot have potential to be anything else
Why must it be?
-- it must be pure being, or pure actuality (if not, then it would need to have ITS potential to actualize other things actualized by something else and therefore it would not be the start of the causal chain).
Energy and matter could start the chain.

Now (and here we veer into the First Cause argument)

Matter and Energy?





Bear in mind, this is merely an argument for the existence of a (single, omnipotent) God. It is not, as you have noted, necessarily an argument for the Christian conception of God
Actually no it can be used to claim anything I can claim there was a guy named Todd who was the first cause and have it be just as valid.

-- but then not even Aquinas himself asserted as much. It is, however, the basis on which natural law theory (and thus Christianity as a whole) is built.

There is a reason why he didn't assert that because he couldn't.

But once you have established that there is an all-powerful God, the rest is all questions of technical details, anyway.

Agreed and the world has been waiting for someone to establish that since the dawn of time. They are still waiting.


Obviously you would benefit from a better reading by a more talented writer, which is why I recommended Feser's book
And you would benefit by not being an arrogant prick who thinks he is better than the world. But I think we both know that's not going to happen.

I am arguing that it is impossible for a thing to cause itself to happen, since for it to do so it would have to exist in that state already.

But you make an exception for Yahweh.

I am also arguing that it is impossible to have a causal chain that has no beginning (though it is distinctly possible for it to have no end).

But you argue that god is eternal? Make up your own mind before you attempt to convince others.

What this means is that the Unmoved Mover argument is not, as Dawkins and other atheists fraudulently (or ignorantly) misrepresent it, an argument for a temporal first cause --
You have been arguing this since the beginning of the conversation.

faithpalm-jesus-god-facepalm-bible-faithpalm-fail-religion-c-demotivational-poster-1271278061.jpg
 
Re: Intelligent Design

et al,

OK, I'm a bit disoriented here.

Relative to the furtherance of Intelligent Design, what was the evidence - or - near evidence; or even any series of successive approximations that follow the scientific process that promotes this theory?

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Re: Intelligent Design

et al,

OK, I'm a bit disoriented here.

Relative to the furtherance of Intelligent Design, what was the evidence - or - near evidence; or even any series of successive approximations that follow the scientific process that promotes this theory?

Most Respectfully,
R

Intelligent design is not a theory, nor is it science.

Intelligent design is a philosophical position.

Given the astounding variety, complexity, and order of life on Earth, we have to believe either one of two things:

Either it evolved all on its own, with no one setting the process in motion nor guiding it along, or
There is an intelligence greater than ours that is behind it all.

As far as I know, there is no third alternative, nor is there any evidence for either of the two choices. You either have to accept the one or the other on faith.
 
You first have to make an argument for me to be familiar with it. Short declarative statements an argument does not make.

Once again, given that you were already arguing that the argument was false, I simply assumed you were familiar with it.

I will not presume that you know what you're talking about again.

You see this is where your argument is absolute rubbish it declares everything that but you will make an exception for a bearded desert myth on the cloud, he does not need a cause? Something as simple as a rock moving needs a cause but not this guy sitting on a cloud with his naughty and nice list?

First of all, the Unmoved Mover of this argument is in no sense anthropomorphic but pure actuality and absolutely noncomposite. It would resemble nothing you have ever seen before, to the extent it can be said to resemble something or be seen at all.

And that the Unmoved Mover/First Cause does not require a mover or a causer simply stems logically from the fact that it is incapable of change, being a permanent and necessary fact of universal existence. And only that which changes requires an agent to act on it externally.

Firstly our neurons are constantly firing without cause, atoms are vibrating without cause. Secondly I find it interesting that you would say "nothing" but make an exception for Yahweh this is special pleading and extremely dishonest.

Neurons fire because they receive signals to. They're simply machines built of protein; they do not operate themselves. You might argue that they fire without conscious direction. Atoms vibrate because of universal laws like gravitation and the strong and weak forces.

And the argument proves that only that which changes requires an outside agent to act upon it. The First Cause is by definition unchanging.

It is vibrating on the atomic level.

And such vibrations are responsible for its movement on that scale. They do not cause it to roll spontaneously along the ground.

And at any rate, something must be acting on atomic movements to cause them to change, as well.

There was a beginning? But you declare your god eternal? I think you need to make up your mind.

You misunderstand. This is an ontological argument, not a temporal one.

Why must it be?

Ontologically, everything which comes into existence must have a beginning.

Energy and matter could start the chain.

No, it cannot. Their potential to actualize something else must itself be actualized by something else.

There is a reason why he didn't assert that because he couldn't.

That is correct. It is a logical proof for the existence of God, not a theological speculation about baptism or something.

And you would benefit by not being an arrogant prick who thinks he is better than the world. But I think we both know that's not going to happen.

I assume you're butthurt because I've called you out repeatedly on your general ignorance, crudeness, and bigotry. And I'll remind you that you kicked off the asshole parade by insulting my religion in a thread in which I greeted the HoP community.

But I will forgive you if you apologize and forswear any further vulgarity or presumption, and in turn I will apologize for any offense I may have given you. How's that sound?

But you make an exception for Yahweh.

I do not. Again, the Unmoved Mover is pure actuality and therefore incapable of change. It has no potentialities to be realized.

But you argue that god is eternal? Make up your own mind before you attempt to convince others.

God is the beginning. That is the point of the argument.

You have been arguing this since the beginning of the conversation.

No, I have not. The argument is not that the universe began to exist at this or that point (and Aquinas didn't make it). Therefore it is not a temporal argument.

It is an ontological argument: that the mere of act of being a thing capable of change requires, logically, the existence of a changer.
 
Intelligent design is not a theory, nor is it science.

Intelligent design is a philosophical position.

Given the astounding variety, complexity, and order of life on Earth, we have to believe either one of two things:

Either it evolved all on its own, with no one setting the process in motion nor guiding it along, or
There is an intelligence greater than ours that is behind it all.

As far as I know, there is no third alternative, nor is there any evidence for either of the two choices. You either have to accept the one or the other on faith.

That is, I think, a pretty accurate summation of the ID argument.

It basically concedes to the materialists the notion that the universe operates mechanistically and deterministically according to blind and irrational forces, and argues on the basis of probability that God (probably) exists because it is highly unlikely that complexity would exist in the universe without him.

It is, as I said, quite a foolish argument -- and unnecessary. The existence of God can be discerned through metaphysical inquiry, rather than haphazard probabilistic guesswork.
 
That is, I think, a pretty accurate summation of the ID argument.

It basically concedes to the materialists the notion that the universe operates mechanistically and deterministically according to blind and irrational forces, and argues on the basis of probability that God (probably) exists because it is highly unlikely that complexity would exist in the universe without him.

It is, as I said, quite a foolish argument -- and unnecessary. The existence of God can be discerned through metaphysical inquiry, rather than haphazard probabilistic guesswork.

Philosophers have been trying to prove the existence of god for centuries. So far, there is no proof that even comes close to being irrefutable.

What is foolish is to try to argue that evolution by natural selection proves the opposite.
 
Philosophers have been trying to prove the existence of god for centuries. So far, there is no proof that even comes close to being irrefutable.

What is foolish is to try to argue that evolution by natural selection proves the opposite.

I beg to disagree with regard to the first statement. There have been plenty of logical (albeit not evidential) proofs for the existence of God. What I provided earlier in this thread, the argument for the Unmoved Mover and the First Cause, are just such.

Granted, they are relatively sparse in what they tell us: only that there is a single, all-powerful being from which all of existence flows (not temporally but ontologically -- in every single moment), a being whose essence is simply pure existence, unchanging and eternal.
 
I beg to disagree with regard to the first statement. There have been plenty of logical (albeit not evidential) proofs for the existence of God. What I provided earlier in this thread, the argument for the Unmoved Mover and the First Cause, are just such.

Granted, they are relatively sparse in what they tell us: only that there is a single, all-powerful being from which all of existence flows (not temporally but ontologically -- in every single moment), a being whose essence is simply pure existence, unchanging and eternal.

OK, I'd like to believe that, and I'm sure lots of people would also. Are you sure that the arguments you're talking about rise to the level of proof?
 
I beg to disagree with regard to the first statement. There have been plenty of logical (albeit not evidential) proofs for the existence of God. What I provided earlier in this thread, the argument for the Unmoved Mover and the First Cause, are just such.

Granted, they are relatively sparse in what they tell us: only that there is a single, all-powerful being from which all of existence flows (not temporally but ontologically -- in every single moment), a being whose essence is simply pure existence, unchanging and eternal.

See, i have no problem believing in the existence of a higher power. To me, evolution and creatio are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, one makes no sense without the other,

In fact, it is because i believe in the existence of a higher power (God, for the lack of another term) that the IMAGE of God appears to me to be solely man made, and totally limited by men's cultural mores, human knowledge and understanding 5000, 3000, 2000 years ago and even today.

This is why, I thrive to respect all manmade images of God, but I can't limit my interpretation of the universal God and His/Her/It will to ONE image (in this case, the Christian image) and ignore all the other manmade images.

The only way I can respect man made images of God, is to respect the intent behind those images.

But unfortunately, I find that the nore dogmatic and intolerant organized religions are, the further away they stray from the obvious idea of God, that to Unite, rather than divide mankind in his/her/it's name.
 
OK, I'd like to believe that, and I'm sure lots of people would also. Are you sure that the arguments you're talking about rise to the level of proof?

Well, they are "proofs" in a logical sense. Again, they are not "evidence," which is a particular kind of proof (specifically, proof of a material phenomenon). But they are certainly sound metaphysical arguments.

But then there are many things we know to be true without evidence, merely with logical proofs. There are some things we know to be true without even the benefit of logical proofs: Euclid's axioms are a good example of this (they are axioms, after all).

See, i have no problem believing in the existence of a higher power. To me, evolution and creatio are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, one makes no sense without the other,

In fact, it is because i believe in the existence of a higher power (God, for the lack of another term) that the IMAGE of God appears to me to be solely man made, and totally limited by men's cultural mores, human knowledge and understanding 5000, 3000, 2000 years ago and even today.

This is why, I thrive to respect all manmade images of God, but I can't limit my interpretation of the universal God and His/Her/It will to ONE image (in this case, the Christian image) and ignore all the other manmade images.

The only way I can respect man made images of God, is to respect the intent behind those images.

But unfortunately, I find that the nore dogmatic and intolerant organized religions are, the further away they stray from the obvious idea of God, that to Unite, rather than divide mankind in his/her/it's name.

I have always understood the notion that God created man in his image to refer to the fact that God endowed man with reason and independent will -- those things which are the sole and exclusive provenance of the human creature, shared by nothing else in the animal kingdom.

And of course, teleology tells us that we have reason that we might discern truths, and will that we might act in accordance with them. If there is anything worth being dogmatic about, it is truth.
 
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Well, they are "proofs" in a logical sense. Again, they are not "evidence," which is a particular kind of proof (specifically, proof of a material phenomenon). But they are certainly sound metaphysical arguments.

but not proofs based in empirical data that can be tested and independently verified. The existence of a creator god is more in the realm of philosophy, as are metaphysical arguments.


I have always understood the notion that God created man in his image to refer to the fact that God endowed man with reason and independent will -- those things which are the sole and exclusive provenance of the human creature, shared by nothing else in the animal kingdom.

Are they really the sole and exclusive provenance of humans? There is evidence that the dolphins, apes, elephants, and other higher animals share the ability to reason, though not on the same level as human beings.

And of course, teleology tells us that we have reason that we might discern truths, and will that we might act in accordance with them. If there is anything worth being dogmatic about, it is truth.

Which is why science is so dogmatic about proving hypotheses before accepting them as true, i.e., theories. Religion/philosophy, on the other hand, tends to believe what its adherents want to believe, then try to find an argument to support their beliefs.
 
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