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Iran has the right to defend its country.

Discussion in 'World Politics' started by Octoldit, Jul 22, 2008.

  1. Octoldit

    Octoldit Member

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    With all that has gone on in Iran’s neighboring country being ruthless and beastly, and terroristic attacks on Iraqi people, economy and infrastructure, which was instigated and “engineered by the Israelis” find a nation anywhere on the globe more deserving of the most effective weapons available.

    Whether these weapon act as a deterrent, or for counter attack the nation of Iran has the God given right to defend itself! Who in the world do these Israeli’s think they are? They hijack the American military and use American resources for the destruction and occupation of Iraq, and they try and tell Iran they can’t enrich uranium.

    This attitude has far reaching implications for right here in American, and they are also trying to disarm Americans and destroy the 2nd Amendment as well as the Constitution. The large banks are going into poor area’s buying guns from people who have fallen prey to the politically engineered tactics of the “operation erase lower and middle class”.

    The so-called Federal Reserve is the label placed on the wicked and greedy international Jewish bankers. This is how they have the leverage to hijack our military, bankrupt our economy and then have the nerve to use any revenue to might be left to bail out Bear Stearns and others.

    Iran is one of the few large countries in the world without a central bank, and it’s the Israelis that are so eager to start another war. They get rich off of war, and other people’s money and blood. 9-11 was their false flag operation that has been used to strip Americans of our rights, got us into two wars and has looted our treasury of trillions.

    They did it to Russia with the Bolshevik revolution, and brought in Communist from “New York City”, which is the largest population of these people outside the nation of Israel/Edom. Remember the Soviet Union and all the spying on citizens that was part of what the Jews brought to Russia. Stalin himself was a Jew.

    Connect the Dots... is the so-called department of Homeland Security with the hijacking of the NSA is this not the American version of the Soviet Union? Far too many people are being bribed by these people’s fiat money that by the way is “not any longer backed by gold”. Their inflation has robbed every single American for centuries, and what this nation could have been like without their inflation illustrates the pure evil of their depraved methods one being "Usury".

    A lie can never become truth, and again paper money will become worthless. Due to inflation the cost of manufacturing without slave labor has placed the economy of Communist China above our own, and Communist methods above our own. They are defining what America is; and America is losing its identity. Those who are informed and think the Israelis are friends of America or any other country must be certifiably insane.
     
  2. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Defend that rhetoric.
     
  3. UShadItComing

    UShadItComing New Member

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    It made a lot of sense to me GenSeneca. Would you deny that any of his words are not true and if so then which?

    The only thing I thought needed to be corrected is Ahmadinejad's reference to Satan but I also realize that he believes in such an entity. I don't and I understand that's nothing more than hocus-pocus religious superstition. Do you think it's wise to not acknowledge that threre really is a movement on which stretches from the tiop of S.America to Asia which is opposed to Israel's evil apartheid regime and is opposed to the US? I don't think there is anything to be gained by pretending there isn't.
     
  4. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Were he chanting "Death to Canada" you may have a slightly different interpretation. Here in America, and over in Isreal, our Presidents are democratically elected, they don't reside over a Theocratic Dictatorship and they most importantly DO NOT stand before crowds of religious fanatics screeming "Death to Iran" and threatening to wipe them off the map.

    Do you have something to gain by pretending we do?
     
  5. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    all that you say is true, however, Iranian sociery and the Iranian people are not Mr. Armeddinnerjacket and his Revolutionary Guards so to me it seems sad to paint the country by the words of a frigging lunatic.

    There is a moderate wing to the theocracy and engagement with these poeple in dialogue is perhaps better than beating the war drums and unleashing the Israelis in yet another one of their hamfisted acts of enforced disarmament.
     
  6. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    None of that is here or there. Like saying during WWII that there are lots of nice germans. The people who control the missiles, the army, and soon enough the nukes are the islamofascists.

    Didn't the euros, the masters of "non-cowboy" diplomacy, do that for three years, with zero results?
     
  7. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Can the same not be said about us? American society and the American people are not George Bush and his administration.... When the Religious Iranian Fanatics say death to America - they don't distinguish between you, me and Mr. Bush... We're all the same.

    I understand full well there are moderates in Iran. I grew up with a guy who's family fled Iran after the overthrow of the shaw. There are no shortage of moderates in Iran just as there is no shortage of moderates here in the us and no shortage of people like yourself who can draw these distinctions. HOWEVER, You, me, the moderates in Iran - Have no power and the moderates in Iran even LESS power than we moderate Americans have.

    It was not my intent to beat the war drums, only to point out that for a country who claims to have the right to defend themselves with nuclear weapons - they talk more about offensive strikes with those weapons than their presence being a deterrent.
     
  8. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    The "shaw"?? :) George Bernard? :D
     
  9. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    ....I suppose what I was stumbling towards was that whilst, yes the overwhelming argument would appear to do something rather than sit with our collective thumbs up our arses', would it not be better to take a more ...what...cautions approach? I think that to act in a belligerent fashion seems likely to reinforce and feed the rhetoric of the more extreme elements of that society like the revolutionary guards and Armeddinnerjacket in particular as their mouthpiece. By meeting jingoisim with further drum beating (especially the Isreali kind) do we not arm them with the propoganda they need to sustain their own positions?

    Iran needs the west despite what the hardliners say and they are feeling the effects of sanctions. By manipulating the more moderate members of Iranian society via pro-US propoganda through for example US NGOs in Iran would probably be a better use of time and resources rather than standing at a distance with Isreal on a short leash!

    Masher tried to make the point that the Europeans have already attempted this and got nowhere. Well diplomacy and building bridges into a hostile regime takes time (certainly more than 3 years) and considerable effort as evidenced by the cold war. The diplomats that negotiated the various treaties with their russian counterparts should perhaps be wheeled out again as they knew the art of diplomacy and the power of persistence.



    ....yeah sorry mate I didn't make that clear at all.... my comment was not aimed at you it was just a generalisation :)
     
  10. BigRob

    BigRob Well-Known Member

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    Obama wants to hold direct talks, which is stupid. We have nothing to offer Iran. They do not need our aid, they are looking for legitimacy and also guarantees that we and Israel will leave them alone. We cannot promise that, so talks are dead in the water from the start, except we would have already given up the legitimacy that they need.

    Iran is not feeling the effects of sanctions. We do not have sanctions in place on their oil, and they are basically a single commodity economy, so unless we sanction the oil, sanctions are useless.

    The international system was very different during the Cold War than it is now. Yes it takes time to build inroads, but time is what we do not have if we want to prevent Iran from going nuclear. We can take all the time in the world, and once they go nuclear it was all a waste. Time is a luxury that we do not possess in this situation.

    In Iran, the President is not popular. He is attacked in the state run media and many people are upset that his domestic policies have been total failures. If we refuse to talk to him and give him ammunition to take their minds off of that we may just end up with a more pro-Western leader in a few years who does not even want to pursue the bomb.

    So yes, we should follow a diplomatic route, but not with Iran, we need to be talking to Europe and China and Russia about cutting off their oil exports.



    ....yeah sorry mate I didn't make that clear at all.... my comment was not aimed at you it was just a generalisation :)[/QUOTE]
     
  11. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Scot,

    Rob made many points that I would have made myself so I'll just bring up a few and Rob, many thanks for the contribution:

    Israel is not a large country, 2k sq mi smaller than Massachusetts, and its surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. We don't appreciate the Israeli situation here in America but just imagine if the states surrounding Massachusetts were all hostile and routinely fired RPG's and Mortars into the cities of Massachusetts.

    Additionally, the leaders of those states openly declare their interest in seeing Massachusetts "wiped off the map" and are actively seeking bigger and better arms to accomplish that mission.

    A nuke going off in America would be a horrific tragedy but because we have so much land and so much population, we would survive and remain the super power we are today. That same nuke going off in Israel could end the countries existence.

    As for Sanctions... Rob is correct, they have little effect on Iran and the intricate nature of interdependency in the region has made them friends with some very important powers. Rob mentioned some of Irans Oil buyers but he left off India who, if memory serves, recently began negotiations for an oil pipeline between the countries that would further weaken our strategy of Sanctions.

    Hardliner stance...Russia and China have been buying up America's staggering 9 trillion dollar debt and an American strike on Iran could cost us FAR more than it would cost Iran. Interrupting the global supply chain of oil by hitting Iran would cause a significant spike in energy prices, which could be the catalyst for Russia and China to call in our debts and bankrupt our country overnight. Iran knows this and its my opinion that the current high cost of Oil has been a good thing despite its economic impact on our country.

    Finally, you mentioned our diplomatic successes with the old Soviet Union... We were outbuilding, out arming and outspending the Russians and it was that position of strength that led to the breakthroughs - Russia went broke. They are putting themselves in a position to repay the favor.

    To put all this in a language the "McSame" crowd can understand:

    Sanctions will not work
    because the people we need on board won't do it.

    Attacking Iran would be a disaster ruining both countries and leaving China and Russia as the new world leaders.

    Direct diplomacy would be fruitless since WE are not approaching from a position of strength, our stick, and Iran isn't interested in our carrots.

    Controlling Israel is not an Option as they are on the frontlines and have much more to lose than we do if their neighbors go nuclear.

    Iran is going to be a difficult nut to crack and pretending like there is a best solution is pure fantasy... Much like our presidential elections, we will be looking at our options from a viewpoint of picking the lesser of many evils in dealing with Iran.
     
  12. UShadItComing

    UShadItComing New Member

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    Bush won't bomb.

    Obama will take over and he won't bomb either.

    Iran will get it's defensive nuclear deterrant.

    Everyone will live happily ever after. *

    *Except the Zionists who will whine a little about having to play nice with it's Arab neighbours.
     
  13. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    "Zionist"?? Why didn't you say "isrealis"? Are you an anti-semite, too?
     
  14. GenSeneca

    GenSeneca Well-Known Member

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    Zionists are people like myself who think Israel is a legitimate country and shouldn't be wiped off the map by its neighbors.
     
  15. Libsmasher

    Libsmasher New Member

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    Then I'm a zionist too. L'Chaim! :D
     
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