Tunnel found under the US/Mexico border

[GenSeneca]

As I said, the real money makers in Mexico are Narcotics like Heroin, Cocaine, and to a growing extent illegal generic pharmacuticals. Those are the substances that fund illegal drug cartels in Mexico - the kind that dig tunnels under our border - any money they get from pot sales is just an added bonus to an already thriving business.

Let me get this straight... You think building a wall is a huge waste of time and money but a National ID card is not? ...Seriously?

Now as for the "path" to legal immigration... Are you suggesting that we eliminate the cap on immigration?

We currently have strict limits on immigration so as not to flood the country with unskilled laborers. An unfettered influx of unskilled labor would crash the economy and collapse federal and state welfare programs. It's because people are not willing to "stand in line with their fellow contrymen" waiting to be vetted that they ignore our laws and enter the country illegally.

Lastly... The idea that illegals are going to "go home and stand in line" is wishful thinking. Why would you bother? You're already here... And you think moving US immigration offices outside the US and into countries with notoriously corrupt and unstable governments is not an, "expensive, ineffective, boondoggle" waiting to happen?

 

[PLC1]

As I said, the real money makers in Mexico are Narcotics like Heroin, Cocaine, and to a growing extent illegal generic pharmacuticals. Those are the substances that fund illegal drug cartels in Mexico - the kind that dig tunnels under our border - any money they get from pot sales is just an added bonus to an already thriving business.

which is why we need to enact comprehensive drug reform, not just legalize pot.

Let me get this straight... You think building a wall is a huge waste of time and money but a National ID card is not? ...Seriously?

Seriously. A sixteen foot ladder costs a lot less than a fifteen foot high wall, and there is no way to keep people from tunneling under it either. A national ID card would be much cheaper, but it won't happen because it would actually work. Neither party, remember, really wants to end illegal immigration.

Now as for the "path" to legal immigration... Are you suggesting that we eliminate the cap on immigration?

Not eliminate it, but perhaps raise it. The cry about stopping illegal immigration is, "who will harvest the crops?" If that is an issue, then let's allow enough people in to harvest the crops. Perhaps bring back the bracero program.

We currently have strict limits on immigration so as not to flood the country with unskilled laborers. An unfettered influx of unskilled labor would crash the economy and collapse federal and state welfare programs. It's because people are not willing to "stand in line with their fellow contrymen" waiting to be vetted that they ignore our laws and enter the country illegally.

Which is why we need a national ID card to make it if not impossible, at least very difficult for illegals to work here or get government services here.

Lastly... The idea that illegals are going to "go home and stand in line" is wishful thinking. Why would you bother? You're already here... And you think moving US immigration offices outside the US and into countries with notoriously corrupt and unstable governments is not an, "expensive, ineffective, boondoggle" waiting to happen?

First, you seem to think that potential immigrants have to come here first in order to apply for legal status. That just is not the case.

Second, yes, they will go home if they can neither get jobs nor government services here. What do you think they will do?

 

[BigRob]

there is a difference though, first depends on if that was before block aid was lifted...but assuming it was before, and yet where still legal..they had to bought threw israel, where they sold them for much much more...while they could import them threw Egypt illegally or half the cost...pot could just be grown in houses or anyplayplace in US in greenhouses...for alot cheaper then import from Mexico or Canada or where ever...

....that Hezbollah cell selling these goods was operating in Michigan.

 

[Rick]

to many republicans say end illegal immigration, but say ID card and they scream black Helicopters and the Dark Sith of the UN is going to come get us....These republicans like to rally around Illegal immigration, but don;t want to take the political heat to actuly fix it and piss off some voters they want...and more important..lose something they use to fire up there base with....Vote for me or the darker skin people will get you!

All leftwingers have is the race card - it's a crutch they use instead of actually debating the issue.

 

[GenSeneca]

I haven't seen you offer any real solutions yet...

"Comprehensive Drug Reform" is a vacuous platitude, lets hear some specifics. So far you've suggested shifting drug addicts from the overcroweded and underfunded prison system into the overburdened and underfunded medical system. Doesn't really sound like a winner.

Whats the cost of implementing a National ID? Lets hear some real figures based on actual facts. This nonsense about how it would be "cheaper" and would "actaully work" doesn't seem to based on anything but your wishful thinking. If it can be made, it can be counterfeited. Your talk about making it "hard as possible" is just rhetoric. We make it "hard as possible" to counterfeit our currency yet millions and millions worth of counterfeit US currency is produced every year.

On the immigration cap, we have millions of applicants and only allow a fraction of them to actually come to the US - creating illegal immigration. While you think it sounds reasonable to say "Perhaps raise it", that doesn't actually solve the problem - So long as the number wanting to get into the US is larger than the number allowed to enter, there will be illegal immigration.

What do I think illegals would do without the ability to get a National ID card? They would work under the table for tax free cash, like millions already do today.

 

[Apathy]

I haven't seen you offer any real solutions yet...

1)"Comprehensive Drug Reform" is a vacuous platitude, lets hear some specifics. So far you've suggested shifting drug addicts from the overcroweded and underfunded prison system into the overburdened and underfunded medical system. Doesn't really sound like a winner.

2)Whats the cost of implementing a National ID? Lets hear some real figures based on actual facts. This nonsense about how it would be "cheaper" and would "actaully work" doesn't seem to based on anything but your wishful thinking. If it can be made, it can be counterfeited. Your talk about making it "hard as possible" is just rhetoric. We make it "hard as possible" to counterfeit our currency yet millions and millions worth of counterfeit US currency is produced every year.

3)On the immigration cap, we have millions of applicants and only allow a fraction of them to actually come to the US - creating illegal immigration. While you think it sounds reasonable to say "Perhaps raise it", that doesn't actually solve the problem - So long as the number wanting to get into the US is larger than the number allowed to enter, there will be illegal immigration.

What do I think illegals would do without the ability to get a National ID card? They would work under the table for tax free cash, like millions already do today.

1) If we did legalize drugs it would severely defund the drug cartel and their power will diminish. Granted switching addicts from prison to a medical system does not help out society. But who says they should recieve help from society? Let them do as they please with their life but dont make others pay for your poor decisions.

2) Even if you put the ineffectiveness aside you still have police officers saying "Show me you papers." I really dont think we as Americans should emulate a regime.

3) I agree. Let them come in the front door have them contribute to society and get a job with a taxable income.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

1) If we did legalize drugs it would severely defund the drug cartel and their power will diminish. Granted switching addicts from prison to a medical system does not help out society. But who says they should recieve help from society? Let them do as they please with their life but dont make others pay for your poor decisions.

2) Even if you put the ineffectiveness aside you still have police officers saying "Show me you papers." I really dont think we as Americans should emulate a regime.

3) I agree. Let them come in the front door have them contribute to society and get a job with a taxable income.

if I shoot up some Heroin, I am doing with my life as I see fit, so jail or Medical help would be the same issue....the problem is the a Crack head, does not just effect himself...A heroin junkie does not just effect themself...Medical help to get them off...leads to less crime and less money spent long term holding them in cells getting no help , while we dont have space or funds for real crimes, like murder and Rape ...so Society does help, just not Directly

 

[PLC1]

Comprehensive drug reform would entail laws that actually reflect the potential damage each drug can do to society. Outlawing pot is much like outlawing alcohol. Cocaine could be made available to addicts under medical care, which would be far and away cheaper than what we're doing currently. Tobacco is one of the most debilitating and addictive drugs we have, yet it is legal. Outlawing it would cause the same sorts of problems that outlawing other addictive substances have caused, but a campaign to discourage the use of any addictive substance would be a better solution than funding drug cartels and gangs by creating an underground market.

There is no reason why a national ID card would cost more than a driver's license. In fact, for the overwhelming majority of Americans who have driver's licenses, initiating a national ID would entail no more than requiring drivers to show a birth certificate or legal residence card when renewing. For the rest, a one time charge equal to what it costs to renew should do it, say, perhaps $10 each for the 1% or so who don't drive, about $10 times three million, or $30 million. That is only a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a fence. After every legal worker has an ID, then fining employers of illegals would severely diminish the number of illegals being hired. If an ID were required for any government service, that would encourage even more to go back home.

There are solutions to these problems that don't entail huge expenses, and that would work a lot better than simply leaping and hooting about illegal immigration and supporting a multi billion dollar boondoggle in the form of a border fence.

How can anyone believe that a fence would work after seeing the sophisticated tunnels that are bringing illegal drugs and illegal aliens into the country?

 

[BigRob]

1) If we did legalize drugs it would severely defund the drug cartel and their power will diminish.

Not automatically. Even if all drugs were legalized tomorrow, cartels still are very active in human trafficking, and there are numerous examples of other groups making millions of dollars selling counterfeit legal products like cigarettes.

Additionally, depending on what the price of drugs is under this new "legal" regime, cartels could still come in and sell drugs at a lower price, which would still create a good demand for those drugs.

Cartels can still produce drugs very cheaply, and could easily compete with the government's prices... and if drugs are legal, bringing them in would become much easier, saving the cartels a ton of money as well.

There are so many scenarios out there, I just don't buy into the idea that "legalizing drugs will limit drug cartel power" automatically.

 

[Apathy]

1)Not automatically. Even if all drugs were legalized tomorrow, cartels still are very active in human trafficking, and there are numerous examples of other groups making millions of dollars selling counterfeit legal products like cigarettes.

2)Additionally, depending on what the price of drugs is under this new "legal" regime, cartels could still come in and sell drugs at a lower price, which would still create a good demand for those drugs.

3)Cartels can still produce drugs very cheaply, and could easily compete with the government's prices... and if drugs are legal, bringing them in would become much easier, saving the cartels a ton of money as well.

There are so many scenarios out there, I just don't buy into the idea that "legalizing drugs will limit drug cartel power" automatically.

1) Human tafficking would not be as big of a business if we make it easier to go in the front door. Who wants to be held by coyotes until they pay their debt when there is an easier and safer route?

2)Who would go to a cartel for drugs they could get legally from someone not known for killing people?

I wouldnt.

3) Who said anything about government selling drugs? Plenty of entrepreneurs that can supply us.

 

[Apathy]

if I shoot up some Heroin, I am doing with my life as I see fit, so jail or Medical help would be the same issue....the problem is the a Crack head, does not just effect himself...A heroin junkie does not just effect themself...Medical help to get them off...leads to less crime and less money spent long term holding them in cells getting no help , while we dont have space or funds for real crimes, like murder and Rape ...so Society does help, just not Directly

You realize most drug users only commit a single offense repeatedly and that is drug itself. The only reason people think of drug users as criminals is because the drug itself is illegal. When is the last time you seen Chech or Chong murder someone?

 

[BigRob]

1) Human tafficking would not be as big of a business if we make it easier to go in the front door. Who wants to be held by coyotes until they pay their debt when there is an easier and safer route?

There is an easier and safer route...it is called legal immigration.

2)Who would go to a cartel for drugs they could get legally from someone not known for killing people?

I wouldnt.

I bet many people would if the price was right.

3) Who said anything about government selling drugs? Plenty of entrepreneurs that can supply us.

Entrepreneurs like the Mexican drug cartels perhaps?

 

[PLC1]

There is an easier and safer route...it is called legal immigration.

yes, that is correct, but legal immigration doesn't result in a pool of low cost labor by people who can be deported if they complain about substandard wages.

I bet many people would if the price was right.

The price won't be right. It just costs too much to smuggle drugs when they can be had legally. You don't see a lot of moonshine stills anymore, do you? When was the last time you went to a speakeasy?

Entrepreneurs like the Mexican drug cartels perhaps?

The Mexican Cartels could not compete against a legitimate provider. Economically, it wouldn't work. Cartels would be history if we were to decriminalize drugs and make them available to addicts under medical supervision. The border wars would be history, just like the rumrunner wars of the past century are history.

 

[BigRob]

yes, that is correct, but legal immigration doesn't result in a pool of low cost labor by people who can be deported if they complain about substandard wages.

Ok, so we all support illegal immigration because we want to pay people substandard wages? I thought that was why we shipped all of our jobs to Mexico.

The price won't be right. It just costs too much to smuggle drugs when they can be had legally. You don't see a lot of moonshine stills anymore, do you? When was the last time you went to a speakeasy?

So we will legalize drugs, but continue to spend billions on enforcement preventing illegal drugs from coming into the country?

I have a hard time believing that the government is not going to step in and heavily regulate a legalized drug market, which will either drive the costs up, or involve subsidies.... I don't see much political support for subsidizing drug use of others, which leaves the door open for cheaper products from Mexico.

The Mexican Cartels could not compete against a legitimate provider. Economically, it wouldn't work. Cartels would be history if we were to decriminalize drugs and make them available to addicts under medical supervision. The border wars would be history, just like the rumrunner wars of the past century are history.

Well you are making it sounds like the government is going to be back to providing drugs under medical supervision. Apathy seemed to indicate (and I could be wrong) that it would be entrepreneurs doing so with no medical supervision. Those are two different scenarios.

Further, why couldn't a cartel compete? I imagine there will be a mountain of red tape, licenses to pay for, taxes etc etc... a cartel has none of that, and unless we continue to heavily fund DEA etc to monitor the border (which saves us no real money) then it will be far easier for them to come in with their cheaper product.

 

[Apathy]

1)There is an easier and safer route...it is called legal immigration.



2) bet many people would if the price was right.



3)Entrepreneurs like the Mexican drug cartels perhaps?

1) Safer yes but currently it is far from easy to enter the US legally.

2) Did the mobsters continue bootleg operations after alcohol prohibition ended?

3) Competition makes it hard for the cartel to make a buck off it. They want a quick easy buck not a legitimate business.