9/11

[USMC the Almighty]

I can post endless amounts of links as well.

9/11 Truth is a bald regurgitation of a silly tale we heard ten years ago
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12131349/
911_truth_bald_regurgitation_of_another_bombing_conspiracy/1

The Mindset of 911 Scholars for Truth and Other Conspiracy Kooks Opinions on a Phenomena
http://www.elmerfudd.us/kooks911.htm

Understand the NIST report...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/sund-flash.html

9/11 Conspiracy Debunking Sites...

9-11 and the New Pearl Harbor
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/2577/9_11_and_the_
New_Pearl_Harbor_Part_I

Journal Of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
http://www.jod911.com

Debunking 9/11's E-Mail - Please read the FAQ before sending
debunk911@hotmail.com

911 Myths - Reading between the lines
http://www.911myths.com

Screw Loose Change Blog
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/

Debunk 9/11 myths
http://www.debunk911myths.org/
Internet Detectives Group - Loose Change
http://internetdetectives.biz/case/loose-change

The 9/11 Debunker Guide
http://911debunker.livejournal.com/

Screw Loose Change - Not Freakin' Again edition
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6596630292015140276&hl=en-CA

9/11, Steven Jones, and Me
http://ldspatriot.wordpress.com/tag/conspiracy-theories/

Your Friday Dose of Woo: And now for something completely different...
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/12/
your_friday_dose_of_woo_and_now_for_some.php

911 Cult Watch
http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk

What I Learned from 9-11 Conspiracy Theories.
http://www.sawyerhome.net/whatilearned.html

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Engine Investigation
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Ground Effect
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml

Counterpunch The Physics of 9/11
http://www.counterpunch.org/physic11282006.html

The 9/11 Faith Movement
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2702/

Attempting to make sense of senseless acts
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=903b3f4a-2e6c-47b4-b710-632c1439aacc&p=1

Did the U.S. government plan and execute the 9/11 attacks?
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html

Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
http://www.alternet.org/story/41601/

9/11 Conspiracy Fantasies
http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/41423/

All Plots Move Deathward
http://insidehighered.com/views/2006/09/06/mclemee

9/11 Conspiracy Theories Persist, Thrive
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2281052

Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html

Popular Mechanics - 9/11: Debunking The Myths
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Fahrenheit 2777
9/11 has generated the mother of all conspiracy theories
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000DA0E2-1E15-128A-9E1583414B7F0000

The Ground Zero Grassy Knoll
http://www.nymetro.com/news/features/16464/

Facts about 9/11. Not Fantasy
http://www.geocities.com/factsnotfantasy/

The September 11 X-Files
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=66

The 9/11 Conspiracy: A Skeptic’s View
http://www.crisispapers.org/essays6p/skeptic.htm

Debunking the 9/11 Movement
http://www.infoshop.org/texts/debunking911.html

Interview with Prof. Jonathan Barnett, an expert in structural and fire protection engineering who was one of the WTC investigators
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/fall.html
Public Eye - Post 9/11 Conspiracism
http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/Post911/demnowfaq.html

Public Eye- 9/11/01 - Repercussions General Conspiracist Views
http://www.publiceye.org/frontpage/911/conspiracist.html
Perry Logon's "Delusion Central" (A fun site.)
http://perrylogan.org/

Viewer Guide to Loose Change (Doc)
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/911_loose_change_2_guide_1.doc

9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide (A light hearted look)
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html
Screw Loose Change Video. (Yes, it's finally here)
http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/

Loose Trains
http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/

Penn & Teller's Bull **** - 911 Conspiracy theories
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7501020220921158523&q=penn+teller+911

Salon - The 9/11 deniers
http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/06/27/911_conspiracies/index.html

SciAm blog about conspiracists' reaction to Shermer
http://sciam-editor.typepad.com/weblog1/2005/05/a_conspiracy_of.html

In These Times: Nightmares of Reason: Sorting fact from fiction in 9/11 conspiracy theories
http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/15/feature1.shtml

The September 11 X-Files
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=66

Snopes debunks "Hunt the Boeing", a conspiracy site based on Thierry Meysan’s (and David Ray Griffin’s) claim that a missile, not AA77, hit the Pentagon
http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Wikipedia articles on conspiracy theory characteristics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracism
It Was Flight 77 - Debunking Alternative Pentagon Crash Theories
http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/

Peer reviewed papers and articles on how the towers collapsed..

Engineers Explain WTC Collapse
http://www.architectureweek.com/2002/0529/news_3-1.html

Report Ties WTC Collapses to Column Failures
http://enr.construction.com/news/buildings/archives/040119.asp

IT WAS THE FIRE, CAUSED THE TWIN TOWER COLLAPSE - icivilengineer.com
http://www.icivilengineer.com/News/WTC/Fire.html

Simulation for the collapse of WTC after aeroplane impact - Lu XZ., Yang N., Jiang JJ. Structure Engineer, 66(sup.). 2003, 18-22

Bazant, Z.P., & Zhou, Y.
"Addendum to 'Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis" (pdf)
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 3, (2002): 369-370.

Brannigan, F.L.
"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.

Clifton, Charles G.
Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers
HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.

"Construction and Collapse Factors"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.

Corbett, G.P.
"Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.

"Dissecting the Collapses"
Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.

Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C.
"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation"
JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.

Federal Emergency Management Agency, Therese McAllister, report editor.
World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, Preliminary Observations, and Recommendations
(also available on-line)

Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A.
"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center"
The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48.

Glover, N.J.
"Collapse Lessons"
Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103

Marechaux, T.G.
"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering"
JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.

Monahan, B.
"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations"
Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.

Newland, D.E., & Cebon, D.
"Could the World Trade Center Have Been Modified to Prevent Its Collapse?"
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 7, (2002):795-800.

National Instititue of Stamdards and Technology: Congressional and Legislative Affairs
“Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center”
Statement of Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr., before Committee of Science House of Representatives, United States Congress on March 6, 2002.

Pinsker, Lisa, M.
"Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site"
Geotimes v. 46, no. 11, (2001).
The print copy has 3-D images.

Public Broadcasting Station (PBS)
Why the Towers Fell: A Companion Website to the Television Documentary.
NOVA (Science Programming On Air and Online)

Post, N.M.
"No Code Changes Recommended in World Trade Center Report"
ENR v. 248, no. 14, (2002): 14.

Post, N.M.
"Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing"
ENR v. 249, no. 19, (2002): 12-14.

The University of Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering
World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects
A resource site.

"WTC Engineers Credit Design in Saving Thousands of Lives"
ENR v. 247, no. 16, (2001): 12.

The Towers Lost and Beyond
http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Eduardo Kausel, John E. Fernandez, Tomasz Wierzbicki, Liang Xue, Meg Hendry-Brogan, Ahmed F. Ghoniem, Oral Buyukozturk, Franz-Josef Ulm, Yossi Sheffi

 

[USMC the Almighty]

Are you happy Spam and Scott. You asked your questions, which is fine, and they have been answered/explained over and over again by real scientists.

Now can we get on to the real issues?

 

[n0spam4me]

OK, so you have read the "official 9/11 report" and you are satisfied that it was a proper use of your tax dollars to fund it, and you have no problem with the way WTC7 fell, and the seriously strange nature of the "FLT77 hitting the PENTAGON" fiasco .....

I guess we just have to agree to dissagree .....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and as we all know
9/11 was an inside job!
.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

OK, so you have read the "official 9/11 report" and you are satisfied that it was a proper use of your tax dollars to fund it, and you have no problem with the way WTC7 fell, and the seriously strange nature of the "FLT77 hitting the PENTAGON" fiasco .....

All of this, including the picture next to your name is addressed somewhere in those links.

I guess we just have to agree to dissagree .....

... and move on to actual issues.

 

[n0spam4me]

I really just don't get it?
Why is Perry Logon's "Delusion Central" (A fun site.)
http://perrylogan.org/
in your list of web-pages?

 

[Friendindeed]

The problem is that a lot of us don't find those explanations conclusive, USMC.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

The problem is that a lot of us don't find those explanations conclusive, USMC.

Fair enough. I don't see how a lot of them could get any more scientifically conclusive, but that's my personal opinion.

I'll assume for a second that you actually did read a few of these links -- I personally believe that you went into reading the explanations with an extremely closed mind (i.e. your mind was already made up) and so you weren't even considering the arguments put forth.

To me, scientific evidence and proof is a lot more convincing then simply asking questions and stringing together a couple of odd coincidences. There were a lot of firsts and unprecedented events that day. Never before had a 767 loaded with jet fuel launched full speed into skyriser, so of course there were some surprising outcomes.

 

[Friendindeed]

"NIST’s final report stated that of the steel available to it for examination, "only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 degrees Celsius" (482 degrees Fahrenheit). The self-cleaning ovens in our home kitchens reach temperatures higher than this, and the ovens do not melt or deform."

I am having big time technical trouble with this site now, s-l-o-w loading.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

I'll assume for a second that you actually did read a few of these links -- I personally believe that you went into reading the explanations with an extremely closed mind (i.e. your mind was already made up) and so you weren't even considering the arguments put forth..

would you say you read Dr Steven Jones synopsis with exactly the same frame of mind?

i don't care much for arguing about the towers. neither side is convincing enough for me (demolition/conspiracy vs burning jet fuel weakened steel/conspiracy). it all distracts from the real issues of 9/11 i.e
- Cheney's shoot down/non shootdown orders
- Mineta's 911 commission testimony being omitted from the report.

Secretary Mineta: “During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out….and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president “do the orders still stand?” And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!??”

- Norad
- Able Danger
- Vigilant Guardian
- PDB "Bin Laden determined to attack US"
- stock dumps and Foreknowledge throughout CIA, FBI, Pakistani ISS, Israeli Mosad
- President's utter failure to defend his country.

Im tired of my scientist vs your scientist debates.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

would you say you read Dr Steven Jones synopsis with exactly the same frame of mind?

I tried. I don't deny that there are a lot of unanswered questions -- but questions alone are not enough to convince me that our government plotted this attack.

I don't care much for arguing about the towers. neither side is convincing enough for me (demolition/conspiracy vs burning jet fuel weakened steel/conspiracy). it all distracts from the real issues of 9/11 i.e
- Cheney's shoot down/non shootdown orders
- Mineta's 911 commission testimony being omitted from the report.

Secretary Mineta: “During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out….and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president “do the orders still stand?” And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!??”

- Norad
- Able Danger
- Vigilant Guardian
- PDB "Bin Laden determined to attack US"
- stock dumps and Foreknowledge throughout CIA, FBI, Pakistani ISS, Israeli Mosad
- President's utter failure to defend his country.

Im tired of my scientist vs your scientist debates.

Again, I don't have all the answers -- there are perfectly reasonable explanations for these in some of those sources I posted. Neither of us were there...

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

I tried. I don't deny that there are a lot of unanswered questions -- but questions alone are not enough to convince me that our government plotted this attack.



Again, I don't have all the answers -- there are perfectly reasonable explanations for these in some of those sources I posted. Neither of us were there...

i don't think our gov't plotted 9/11. I do however, have strong feelings towards the possibility (supported by evidence AND reason) that they were aware of it, allowed it, and embellished it for political reasons.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

I can post endless amounts of links as well.

9/11 Truth is a bald regurgitation of a silly tale we heard ten years ago
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12131349/
911_truth_bald_regurgitation_of_another_bombing_conspiracy/1

The Mindset of 911 Scholars for Truth and Other Conspiracy Kooks Opinions on a Phenomena
http://www.elmerfudd.us/kooks911.htm

Understand the NIST report...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/sund-flash.html

9/11 Conspiracy Debunking Sites...

9-11 and the New Pearl Harbor
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/2577/9_11_and_the_
New_Pearl_Harbor_Part_I

Journal Of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
http://www.jod911.com

Debunking 9/11's E-Mail - Please read the FAQ before sending
debunk911@hotmail.com

911 Myths - Reading between the lines
http://www.911myths.com

i skimmed over all those links, i couldn't find anything that discussed any facts on the following
- Molten steel found weeks later under the rubble of the WTC
- any reference to dozens of witness accounts within the WTC of what sounded like explosions in the lower levels of the WTC
- Able Danger/Atta/Weldon
- Norad
- NYFD tapes
- 9/11 testimony stricken from the record
- foreknowledge

what i see is weak disinformation tactics, taking fringe theories that are easy to poke holes in while largely ignoring the bigger picture. The 9/11 commission report, as well as the FEMA and NIST reports on 9/11 are full of just as many if not more holes than even the most far our "conspiracy" theories.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

i skimmed over all those links, i couldn't find anything that discussed any facts on the following
- Molten steel found weeks later under the rubble of the WTC
- any reference to dozens of witness accounts within the WTC of what sounded like explosions in the lower levels of the WTC
- Able Danger/Atta/Weldon
- Norad
- NYFD tapes
- 9/11 testimony stricken from the record
- foreknowledge

what i see is weak disinformation tactics, taking fringe theories that are easy to poke holes in while largely ignoring the bigger picture. The 9/11 commission report, as well as the FEMA and NIST reports on 9/11 are full of just as many if not more holes than even the most far our "conspiracy" theories.

Skim them again, because you missed it.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

Skim them again, because you missed it.

facts...none

 

[USMC the Almighty]

facts...none

If you don't see any facts in what I've posted then there is no point to further arguing this point with you, because there is nothing that will ever convince you.

I guess you just need a cause to join or else you feel small and irrelevant...