A Sahara Project?

[Sihouette]

Yep. All those things are true. I'm not sure sand removal would be wholly necessary if rainfall could be increased. Rain tends to stabilize dunes when even minute amounts of vegetation take hold. I've certainly seen this on the windswept dunes of the Oregon Coast.

I cannot imagine what else the Lybians and Egyptians would be contemplating doing with that wasteland? If they realized that stabilizing that region might result in land workable enough to extract oil from, they might hop right into the project. [you always have to throw a cookie to people to get them to do the right thing]


I say, grab some dynamite and a fleet of earth movers and flood that depression ASAP. If the project is a disaster then just plug up the hole again and pump the water back out. We could see if it increases rainfall and how it would affect the overall Saharan climate nearby. If it works then designate more areas for inundation in strategic "islands" of water throughout.

 

[Sihouette]

Thar she blows!

How about instead of exploiting the undersea landscape or the lunar or martian landscape, let's start with an area of land larger than the US, likely rich with oil and tons of other potential? How about another continent vegitated and sucking CO2 out of the atmosphere and converting it to O2?

Think of all the money we've spent on NASA and undersea exploration when literally all we're talking about here is some TNT and earthmovers for few months?

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Thar she blows!

How about instead of exploiting the undersea landscape or the lunar or martian landscape, let's start with an area of land larger than the US, likely rich with oil and tons of other potential? How about another continent vegitated and sucking CO2 out of the atmosphere and converting it to O2?

Think of all the money we've spent on NASA and undersea exploration when literally all we're talking about here is some TNT and earthmovers for few months?

Wouldn't it behoove us to think of some 'GREEN SCAPE OPTIONS' to plant instead of more crude oil production...something with rapid renewable growth, lush greenery and has a plethora of uses...such as BAMBOO

 

[Sihouette]

Well if you've been reading my posts you'll see that's what I've been all about. But The Sierra Club won't be able to pull this one off financially or cloutwise. I was thinking that the oil companies have this uncanny way of making things happen if they think there's a profit in it for them.

Naturally in addition to their development they would be required to maintain vast greenscapes and very safe and non-invasive extration and transportation methods. This is my fantasy which is also melded with reality in such a way as to entice its actuation. We could and must continue to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Well if you've been reading my posts you'll see that's what I've been all about. But The Sierra Club won't be able to pull this one off financially or cloutwise. I was thinking that the oil companies have this uncanny way of making things happen if they think there's a profit in it for them.

Naturally in addition to their development they would be required to maintain vast greenscapes and very safe and non-invasive extration and transportation methods. This is my fantasy which is also melded with reality in such a way as to entice its actuation. We could and must continue to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels.

Yes, I've been reading the post {yours included} that's why I'm still here But I was a little taken-a-back by your inserting that about the oil industry...unless as with T.Boone Pickens and his huge wind farm in Texas...I guess some of the top 5 oil barons might be persuaded to participate for the betterment of mankind {and I'm sure that there would be some form of tax credits}good will gestures along the way for their back pockets

We could and must continue to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels.

Sorry, but that just makes me LMAO...seriously...the likelihood of that ever happening in my great grandchildren's generation would be slightly feasible if we learn to teleport our persons around this world similar to Star Trek and the "BEAM ME UP SCOTTY" method for transportation...{{GIGGLING LOUDLY}}

 

[Sihouette]

Well I'm not interested in turning this into a fight. It's obvious that oilmen would only be in it for the money. However, luring them in this way with strings attached to the extraction which would include them pitching in to render the area a net benefit to the earth's viability and ecology would be a very practical way to sell the idea to the world.

If they smell oil, they'll find a way to make it happen...even if it means their begrudgingly accepting that it will make the world a better and cleaner place to live in..lol..

You're talking to the one person here who believes oilmen are the cause of nearly all the evils in the world today. Let's be practical though and put hating aside and see if we can't get something done to cool the place down a little?

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Well I'm not interested in turning this into a fight.

Who's fighting? If you are so sensitive that you can't take this highly hypothetical discussion in a light hearted manner then I'll be backing out of it NOW

It's obvious that oilmen would only be in it for the money.

Not necessarily...the amount of money that the top 5 oil production companies donate for all sorts of 'Save Mother Nature Type of Projects' is huge...so that it does behoove them to step up to the plate and help fix the OZONE LAYER in whatever manner we can try...they live and work in this big blue marble too!

However, luring them in this way with strings attached to the extraction which would include them pitching in to render the area a net benefit to the earth's viability and ecology would be a very practical way to sell the idea to the world.

I don't see that as a problem...once a feasibility study was done...they would probably knock you door down wanting to get on board with anything and everything that they could do to get the project off the table and into phase one!

If they smell oil, they'll find a way to make it happen...even if it means their begrudgingly accepting that it will make the world a better and cleaner place to live in..lol..

LIKE A VOLTURE TO A DEAD BODY...

You're talking to the one person here who believes oilmen are the cause of nearly all the evils in the world today. Let's be practical though and put hating aside and see if we can't get something done to cool the place down a little?

I put the coal/mining industry at the top of my list for doing the most damage then it rolls down to the AUTO Industry with Crude Oil Exploration/Production hand in hand and then the chemical companies

 

[Sihouette]

At any rate...

Here is a resource I found for the Saharan topographic features:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/africa/explore/sahara/sahara_topography_lo.html
The "Regs" and "Chotts" of the Sahara make up over 70% of it's landmass. Regs are the remains of inland waterways and seas. Chotts are more localized depressions where the sparse rainwater collects and then evaporates. Re-flood those and I'll bet the region would re-bloom. And as it does so it will undoubtedly suck in heat from the atmosphere as it converts liquid water to vapor/clouds. It would be like giving the earth a swamp-cooler as it adds more rain to the Sahara and there for more greening. As the greening picks up, the sands would stabilized and thin topsoils would begin to form. In regions where one would want agriculture, deep-rooting sand-tolerant legumes and so on could be planted to regenerate fertility as they die off and contribute organic material to the soils.

As the savannah that was there just a few short thousand years ago returns, I could see huge new wildlife regions opened up to regenerate african species that are being hedged out of their habitats by human invasion. I could see agriculture not only helping to feed people but also contributing to sucking CO2 out of the atmosphere. I could see vast solar farms, saline thermal inversion pond generators, new work, new settlements and so forth. And all this made possible by simply flooding old lowlying areas there with seawater.

It's not like Holland, Venice and New Orleans would shed too many tears about shunting some of it in there..lol..

 

[Sihouette]

It could help Algeria for one stave off the encroachment of the Sahara and maybe even accelerate the reforestation of the atlas cedars that once thrived there.

The forest reserves in Algeria were severely reduced during the colonial period. In 1967 it was calculated that the country's forested area extended over no more than 24,000 square kilometres of terrain, of which 18,000 km2 were overgrown with brushwood and scrub. By contrast, woodlands in 1830 had covered 50,000 km2. In the mid-1970s, however, the government embarked on a vast reforestation program to help control erosion, which was estimated to affect 100,000 cubic meters of arable land annually. Among projects was one to create a barrage vert (green barrier) more or less following the ridge line of the Saharan Atlas and extending from Morocco to the Tunisian frontier in a zone 1,500 kilometers long and up to twenty kilometers wide.

The barrage vert consists principally of Aleppo pine, a species that can thrive in areas of scanty rainfall. It is designed to restore a damaged ecological balance and to halt the northern encroachment of the Sahara. By the early 1980s, the desert had already penetrated the hilly gap between the Saharan Atlas and the Aurès Mountains as far as the town of Bou Saâda, a point well within the High Plateaus region. The barrage vert project was ended in the late 1980s because of lack of funds.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Algeria

I think if just the Qattara Depression were flooded, this might tip the scales?

And here's an interesting tidbit.

In 1957 the American Central Intelligence Agency proposed to President Dwight Eisenhower that peace in the Middle East could be achieved by flooding the Qattara Depression. The resulting lagoon, according to the CIA, would have four benefits: (1) it would be "spectacular and peaceful," (2) it would "materially alter the climate in adjacent areas," (3) it would "provide work during construction and living areas after completion for the Palestinian Arabs," and (4) the project would get Egyptian president Gamel Abdel Nasser's "mind on other matters" because "he need[ed] some way to get off the Soviet Hook." The project was never undertaken.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression

 

[GenSeneca]

And as it does so it will undoubtedly suck in heat from the atmosphere as it converts liquid water to vapor/clouds.

Water vapor is the number one green house gas. Expanding the ocean into the desert would certainly speed the rate at which the water evaporated so the most important factor would be cloud formation, which is unpredictable.

I have no idea where the sahara desert is in relation to the jet streams in the upper atmosphere but...
If the vapor over the desert formed clouds, it would shade the desert, provide increased rainfall, lessen the evaporation and lower the areas temperature.

If the vapor formed clouds but they were carried away by winds, other regions would have the cloud cover, heavier rains, and lower temps (depending on where they end up).

If the vapor doesn't form clouds, it will simply create greater amounts of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Ok, I'm going to voice a concern that has been bugging me since we started this topic; what are the repercussions of this project tilting the counter balance for some other area to be completely the opposite of what it is today...if the land mass is altered this drastically.

You know that cardinal rule "It's not nice to fool with mother nature"...could this in any way come back and bite us in the buttocks in some other area and create some horrible weather tsunami that we can't alter?

I bow to your greater knowledge about the ozone/Co2 factor...I'm just a fraidy lady with concerns about GLOBAL IMPACT...just because it won't mean squat in my yard doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider the other side of the globe if this was to be a project to do!

 

[PLC1]

A few scientific studies definitely need to be done prior to any moving of sand/water to find out about jet streams and the like. Perhaps some of the unintended consequences could be predicted and perhaps even mitigated.

After the project is completed, we'd have some idea about projects that make major changes to areas of the Earth. Perhaps that knowledge would help with mankind's next mega project:

Terra forming Mars.

 

[Sihouette]

Water vapor is the number one green house gas

No, clouds aren't really the problem. CO2 is. CO2 is what is trapping the heat in the earth's atmosphere. Clouds will precipitate out in rain.

What about water vapor? Water vapor is the most abundant heat-trapping gas, but rarely discussed when considering human-induced climate change. The principal reason is that water vapor has a short cycle in the atmosphere (a few days) before it is incorporated into weather events and falls to Earth, so it cannot build up in the atmosphere in the same way as carbon dioxide does.[1, 2]~ http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/CO2-and-global-warming-faq.html#What_about_water_vapor

The Sahara will still be hot even if the relatively small Qattara section is inundated. A savannah-type climate like the one 10,000 years ago will be the highest result.

If the new inland sea/lagoon causes problems, pump it back out to sea and close the hole. Problem solved.

I still think it is interesting that the CIA thought of this idea long ago. Indeed it would serve to ease worldwide tensions especially if new oil and food resources could be gotten from there. Also wildlife relocated too. Remember, the entire Sahara is larger than the US! The Qattara Depression is only like 70 x 100 miles. That's like nothing, and yet it's subtle presence there under water could nudge the environment back to savannah. It could be just enough to drop the temperature and raise the rainfall into the range of savannah across large sections of now-barren rocky land.

I forget who was going on and on about the sand problem? In reality, the Sahara is only about 30% sandbound. The rest is mountainous or barren rock-strewn plains.

 

[Sihouette]

Here's the explanation for the water vapor/CO2 issue I tried to post above.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Siho Said: I forget who was going on and on about the sand problem?

That would be ME so I shouldn't ask so many question