Auto companies to bring back electric cars nobody wanted

[Andy]

Anybody ever hear of TESLA motors?

If I had the spare change, I'd buy one in an instant!

The only thing it needs is a change of body to make it look like a mundane mini-van so its not a cop magnet.

Really? You would shell out $100,000 dollars for a two seat, with no trunk, and a 6 hour recharge, and a 120 mile max?

Perhaps if I had money to burn, a garage to keep it in, and a second car for general use...

 

[top gun]

Anybody ever hear of TESLA motors?

If I had the spare change, I'd buy one in an instant!

The only thing it needs is a change of body to make it look like a mundane mini-van so its not a cop magnet.

Those things are SUPER COOL! I watched a whole documentary on the company a while back. Not only are they SWEET LOOKIN' they have speed that goes with it.

They have a big backlog of orders... the Roadster is sold out for 2009, meaning that Tesla has received orders for all of the cars that it can produce. The Tesla Roadster Sport, which accelerates a tad faster than the Roadster, is set for delivery in late June.

Granted this is a niche car for people who want a real green sports car... but what the hell is wrong with that... that's cool.

There will be plenty of a whole WHOLE lot less expensive electric & electric hybrid family cars coming down the pike.

I'm like you... I like seeing the hot ones too!

 

[Andy]

Those things are SUPER COOL! I watched a whole documentary on the company a while back. Not only are they SWEET LOOKIN' they have speed that goes with it.

They have a big backlog of orders... the Roadster is sold out for 2009, meaning that Tesla has received orders for all of the cars that it can produce. The Tesla Roadster Sport, which accelerates a tad faster than the Roadster, is set for delivery in late June.

Granted this is a niche car for people who want a real green sports car... but what the hell is wrong with that... that's cool.

There will be plenty of a whole WHOLE lot less expensive electric & electric hybrid family cars coming down the pike.

I'm like you... I like seeing the hot ones too!

lol Calm down sparky! So you would pay out that much for a 120 mile max, no trunk, two seat, 6 hour charge car? That's pretty impressive. You must be the wealthy that Obama says we should redistribute wealth from. I'd wager most Americans can't afford a car like that.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

lol Calm down sparky! So you would pay out that much for a 120 mile max, no trunk, two seat, 6 hour charge car? That's pretty impressive. You must be the wealthy that Obama says we should redistribute wealth from. I'd wager most Americans can't afford a car like that.

but much like a dvd player use to cost 800 bucks...as we push more and more, the cost will get lower and lower, and that is in fact where the future lies...not in 22mpg suv like some here seem to think.

 

[Andy]

but much like a dvd player use to cost 800 bucks...as we push more and more, the cost will get lower and lower, and that is in fact where the future lies...not in 22mpg suv like some here seem to think.

I doubt it. Not saying it isn't possible... but I doubt it. Not unless they discover some new and even more amazing battery that is a fraction of the cost to build, and can hold more juice per pound. Right now, that's a dream that exists in Sci-Fi movies.

The problem with comparing DVD players to electric cars is, mass production isn't going to drop the price of electric cars as much as it did DVD players.

Why? DVD player parts were fairly cheap to begin with. The main cost was assembly of the unit. This is how using economies of scale, manufacturing in large numbers will reduce the price. Henry Ford Model T, same thing.

However, with electric cars, that system won't help much. Why? Because the cost is not in the assembly. No, manufacturing cars is a near perfected science already. And electric cars are already cheaper to assemble than conventional cars. Fewer parts, less assembly.

The cost problem with electric cars is almost exclusively the battery pack. For example, Tesla recently stated a new battery pack would cost $36,000. Now given their new Model S, has a retail price of $57,000.

Now let's do some quick math... $57,000 minus $36,000 is $21K. In that $21K they have to buy everything else to make the car, pay the workers to assemble it, pay the sales team to sell it, and then make a profit. How much further do you think mass production is going to drop that price?

I don't know, but I doubt much. But who knows... in Russia where the capital gains and income taxes is so low, someone might have enough money to soak into R&D on batteries to come up with something new. If it happened we could all be driving electric cars in 10 years.

Of course that assumes there is a way to pack tons more energy into a battery while costing less. Physics doesn't suggest that there is... so far.

All that said, I'm all for this company. Granted I wouldn't buy one unless it was free or for under a hundred bucks, but I'll all for people buying whatever car they want, whether it be a Hummer or a Tesla Roadster. Freedom. It's what makes America great.

As a secondary thought... if Cap and Trade goes through as planned, and electrical prices sky rocket as economists predict, you'll end up with a new movie about "who killed the electric car?".

 

[top gun]

lol Calm down sparky! So you would pay out that much for a 120 mile max, no trunk, two seat, 6 hour charge car? That's pretty impressive. You must be the wealthy that Obama says we should redistribute wealth from. I'd wager most Americans can't afford a car like that.

Sparky?... you're killing me. Your daddy must have gave ya that word to use?

Fact is... like I said... this is a great car for what it is and it does a couple really good things. It promotes a cool concept that green can be fast AND good looking.

Just like how with cell phone technology they eventually became very affordable with excellent range & tiny. With electric cars they will become cheaper & cheaper and go further & further on a charge... and eventually charge completely in a couple hours and get bigger & bigger.

Not to mention the mainly electric Hybrids like the Chevy Volt coming to showrooms soon.

And I hate it when you get so goofy. Of course the Tesla is not some 4 or 5 seat family car with a huge trunk... neither is an Audi TT or a Porsche Boxster or any number of other sports cars.

Bottom line with the Tesla is some of the folks that would have shelled out money for a gas 2 seat sports car will now buy a Tesla... or are at least on the waiting list.

 

[top gun]

I doubt it. Not saying it isn't possible... but I doubt it. Not unless they discover some new and even more amazing battery that is a fraction of the cost to build, and can hold more juice per pound. Right now, that's a dream that exists in Sci-Fi movies.

The problem with comparing DVD players to electric cars is, mass production isn't going to drop the price of electric cars as much as it did DVD players.

Why? DVD player parts were fairly cheap to begin with. The main cost was assembly of the unit. This is how using economies of scale, manufacturing in large numbers will reduce the price. Henry Ford Model T, same thing.

However, with electric cars, that system won't help much. Why? Because the cost is not in the assembly. No, manufacturing cars is a near perfected science already. And electric cars are already cheaper to assemble than conventional cars. Fewer parts, less assembly.

The cost problem with electric cars is almost exclusively the battery pack. For example, Tesla recently stated a new battery pack would cost $36,000. Now given their new Model S, has a retail price of $57,000.

Now let's do some quick math... $57,000 minus $36,000 is $21K. In that $21K they have to buy everything else to make the car, pay the workers to assemble it, pay the sales team to sell it, and then make a profit. How much further do you think mass production is going to drop that price?

I don't know, but I doubt much. But who knows... in Russia where the capital gains and income taxes is so low, someone might have enough money to soak into R&D on batteries to come up with something new. If it happened we could all be driving electric cars in 10 years.

Of course that assumes there is a way to pack tons more energy into a battery while costing less. Physics doesn't suggest that there is... so far.

All that said, I'm all for this company. Granted I wouldn't buy one unless it was free or for under a hundred bucks, but I'll all for people buying whatever car they want, whether it be a Hummer or a Tesla Roadster. Freedom. It's what makes America great.

As a secondary thought... if Cap and Trade goes through as planned, and electrical prices sky rocket as economists predict, you'll end up with a new movie about "who killed the electric car?".

Man you're such a little whiner!

Pocket makes a PERFECT POINT (good job Pocket!) that anybody with even half a brain could see is absolutely true and you cry and morn the fact that technology does radically change and has always changed like that.

Not only was Pocket's DVD player a good example of cost... but I'm supremely confident that when the disc jockey's in the 50's were spinning their 45's or kids were playing their 8 tracks on the way to Woodstock... today's CD & DVD technology was a wild Star Trek only idea... but this technology is old hat today... and dirt cheap.

Just like cells phones and PC's and laptops and 3" thick 52" big screen TV's...

You must be like the only person on the entire planet so stuck on the past and so afraid of better things in the future.

Let's just say a Captain Kirk you certainly are not... more like a Charles Ingalls on Little House on the Praire... Laura get the horse & buggy!

 

[Andy]

Man you're such a little whiner!

You post the most idiotic crap, and come across like a teenager in his parents basement, and then claim I'm a whiner? lol

Pocket makes a PERFECT POINT (good job Pocket!) that anybody with even half a brain could see is absolutely true and you cry and morn the fact that technology does radically change and has always changed like that.

You didn't address any of the points I've made. Moreover, I talked strictly form a scientific background. It's also interesting that when you compare costs of EVs over the past 20 years, they seem to indicate I'm right. The cost hasn't declined that much.

Not only was Pocket's DVD player a good example of cost... but I'm supremely confident that when the disc jockey's in the 50's were spinning their 45's or kids were playing their 8 tracks on the way to Woodstock... today's CD & DVD technology was a wild Star Trek only idea... but this technology is old hat today... and dirt cheap.

Like I said, the component costs of those technologies was fairly cheap. It was manufacturing that was expensive. As mass production increased, cost went down. That is not true with current EVs.

You must be like the only person on the entire planet so stuck on the past and so afraid of better things in the future.

Grow up. Did you not see the section saying:

All that said, I'm all for this company.

I completely hope they are successful. I'm all for there being more options for people to choose from. Better still I wish people would go back to school and learn reading comprehension.

Keep your pathetic insults to yourself. You come across as an idiot.

 

[top gun]

You post the most idiotic crap, and come across like a teenager in his parents basement, and then claim I'm a whiner? lol

Because you are. You just come up with the most bizarre moaning stuff so lacking in any advancement and futuristic vision it's crazy.

You didn't address any of the points I've made. Moreover, I talked strictly form a scientific background. It's also interesting that when you compare costs of EVs over the past 20 years, they seem to indicate I'm right. The cost hasn't declined that much.

I've addressed every crazy old fashion point you've tried to make and it's not all that hard. It's like Henry Ford schooling the stable boy @ Andy's Livery & Blacksmith shop.

The reason the electric cars have not yet dropped to real super deal prices is simple. It's still new & developing tech. In fact the mostly electric hybrid is in competition with the full electrics. The new battery tech alone is light years better.

Now if you'd like to argue that the Chevy Volt or Tesla is the same thing as the 1996-99 EV1 and should be priced the same or cheaper... please run don't walk to the Med Cart!

 

[Andy]

Because you are. You just come up with the most bizarre moaning stuff so lacking in any advancement and futuristic vision it's crazy.

Yeah I see. Talking about real problems inherent to the production of electric vehicles, in your world is "bizarre moaning stuff". If you are too ignorant to have relevant information to add to the discussion, then perhaps you should shut up.

The reason the electric cars have not yet dropped to real super deal prices is simple. It's still new & developing tech. In fact the mostly electric hybrid is in competition with the full electrics. The new battery tech alone is light years better.

So in your world, electric vehicles which existed back in the 1900s, which 25% of the cars built were electric, is "new & developing tech". You obviously don't know history. You clearly don't understand the technology. Plus you still have yet to add any relevant information to the topic at hand. Perhaps you should go find a topic you know something about, although I doubt one exists.

Now if you'd like to argue that the Chevy Volt or Tesla is the same thing as the 1996-99 EV1 and should be priced the same or cheaper... please run don't walk to the Med Cart!

The volt is a Hybrid. It's not the same. Tesla has a much higher cost to pay for the battery pack. $36,000 for the battery pack alone, is enough to buy nearly any basic car. For $57K Model S, you can buy nearly any Cadillac. For $100K Roadster, you can buy nearly any car on the market, other than the ultra-luxury Bentley's and so on.

Now if I have to choose between a $85K Cadillac XLR that I can drive anywhere there's a connecting road to....

Or a $100K Tesla that I can't even drive to the Ohio boarder in... I'm taking the Caddy. (and I don't even like Caddys)

Top Gun's dumb as a post "I love electric cars" of the future.

 

[top gun]

Andy;95390]Yeah I see. Talking about real problems inherent to the production of electric vehicles, in your world is "bizarre moaning stuff". If you are too ignorant to have relevant information to add to the discussion, then perhaps you should shut up.

Yes because just because there are "inherant" problems doesn't really mean anything. There were "inherant" problems on going to the moon or building a space station but we overcome them with steady work & advancement.

This is only street cars Andy... it's not flying cars.

So in your world, electric vehicles which existed back in the 1900s, which 25% of the cars built were electric, is "new & developing tech". You obviously don't know history. You clearly don't understand the technology. Plus you still have yet to add any relevant information to the topic at hand. Perhaps you should go find a topic you know something about, although I doubt one exists.

I understand history perfectly. There's almost nothing that hasn't been tried. We used to just basically throw coal into a fire without today's technology and create energy that way too. Still use coal but in much more effecient ways. So that's not the issue. The issue is we only focus on a specific technological goal when market forces or environment forces or economic forces or any number of other forces create a marketable demand.

When gas was 23.9 cents a gallon like it was at my first job at a Certified gas station and most families had only one car and there were far less people on the planet electric cars didn't really have a niche but times are far different than that today.

On top of that the battery technology is expanding by leaps & bounds now. Truthfully I totally realize "all electric" cars do have a way to go yet as a mainstay driver. But that doesn't mean they aren't perfect for many even if for just one in a two car family. And I have absolutely no doubt that regular hybrids & mostly electric hybrids are going to be on a steady increase.

The volt is a Hybrid. It's not the same. Tesla has a much higher cost to pay for the battery pack. $36,000 for the battery pack alone, is enough to buy nearly any basic car. For $57K Model S, you can buy nearly any Cadillac. For $100K Roadster, you can buy nearly any car on the market, other than the ultra-luxury Bentley's and so on.

I'm giving you an example of several things electric based that are big gas savers. And I could say it all day... just like a cell phone used to be half the size of a toaster and cost $1000 with minutes @ $5 per... electric batteries will continue to get better and then eventually cheaper.

Now if I have to choose between a $85K Cadillac XLR that I can drive anywhere there's a connecting road to....

Or a $100K Tesla that I can't even drive to the Ohio boarder in... I'm taking the Caddy. (and I don't even like Caddys)

That's you and you can do that. That doesn't mean everybody wants what Andy wants. Every single day I see hundreds of people driving cars I wouldn't be caught dead in. It could be because they're old gas hogs, or lack certain safety features, or are too low on my performance scale or are just too plain ugly in my opinion. That has nothing to do with what other people like.

I'll give you a perfect example. At one of my properties I have an older couple. The man drives a KIA mini van and his wife has a couple year old Prius.

Now I've said before many times two things. One: I really think hybrid technology is cool. Secondly: That being said I think the Prius is ugly. But that's me. Just last Friday I was talking to this couple about their Prius and man, who was a big older man said he's now looking now at a Hybrid SUV, and his wife said she'll never buy another car other than a Prius she loves it that much.

There are people out there that will feel the same about all electric cars... some already do. Ten years ago the hybrid was a new & strange thing for everyday use. Electric cars are like that now. It's a choice that saves gas for others. I see no problem with that.

 

[Andy]

Yes because just because there are "inherant" problems doesn't really mean anything. There were "inherant" problems on going to the moon or building a space station but we overcome them with steady work & advancement.

This is only street cars Andy... it's not flying cars.

Brilliant. Another idiot post that didn't address any of the points made. So your answer to a battery pack that costs $36,000 is "there were inherent problems with going to the moon".

Oh well that clears everything up. We'll have $20 batteries that weight 5 ounces, and have 300 mile charges, that only take 5 minutes to recharge, in no time because Top Gun says "there were inherent problems with going to the moon".

You do realize the cost to go to the moon was $135 Billion dollars, right? Gee, I think you can overcome a lot of problems when government is there to blow billions on it. If you want to spend $100K, we can make you an electric car that's pretty good too. Why can't I ever find intelligent people to talk to...

I understand history perfectly. There's almost nothing that hasn't been tried. We used to just basically throw coal into a fire without today's technology and create energy that way too. Still use coal but in much more effecient ways. So that's not the issue. The issue is we only focus on a specific technological goal when market forces or environment forces or economic forces or any number of other forces create a marketable demand.

Right, and photovoltaic panels were created back in 1951. All the liberal idiots claimed if we just mass produced them, if we only pushed the market, if we could just install them all over, then prices would come down. We now have over 3 Gigawatts of installed solar power, mostly at government expense. Yet the cost of solar power is still 8 times as expensive as oil generated power, which is the least used and most expensive of the conventional power from Gas, Hydro, Coal and Nuclear. Even then, most of the reduction in price has been due to government incentives and rebates.

What happened? Where was the huge drastic cost reductions? Where did the "future thinking" crap go? The rough estimate for breaking even on a solar installation is still, even to this day, about 25 to 35 years. Most panels need replaced after 20 years.

So why did everyone fall for the "oh well if we just manufacture enough of them blaw blaw blaw" bs? It's because you bought into the pie in the sky, flower power, "hope and change" crap that "going to the moon had inherent problems too!" absolute BS.

The laws of physics do not change because you want something to work. Manufacturing things does not just magically drop the price because you have your head stuck in the clouds, or shoved so far up your politics you can't see.

Will solar panels drop in price? I hope so. But short of a break through, it won't happen. Will EVs drop in price? I hope so. But short of a break through it won't happen.

When Hybrids started coming to market, everyone said the price of their batteries would drop. That was 1997. Now 12 years later, Toyota discovered the opposite. The price of Nickle used in their hybrid batteries hasn't dropped, it's actually gone up. Mining Nickle is expensive, and government environmental regulations, has made opening a new mine for Nickle even more expensive. Plus the demand for Nickle has gone up. So no, the price hasn't gone down.

How many times do you need proven wrong before you give up these dumb claims?

I'm giving you an example of several things electric based that are big gas savers. And I could say it all day... just like a cell phone used to be half the size of a toaster and cost $1000 with minutes @ $5 per... electric batteries will continue to get better and then eventually cheaper.

Apple and Oranges. The amount of power required to run a cell phone has decreased as electrical components within the phone, have been made smaller and require less power. Thus smaller and smaller batteries were required.

This isn't going to happen with automobiles because of the laws of physics. It requires X amount of energy to move the car Y amount of distance at Z speed. Unless they make the car out of paper mache, or cut the horse power to that of a lawn mower, or cut the distance down even further... you are going to need a specific amount of energy. Batteries can only hold so much power. As the amount of stored electricity is increased, so is cost.

You claim batteries have become cheaper, they haven't. They have actually gotten far more costly. The Lithium Ion battery used in EVs today, is four times more expensive per kWh, than NiMH, and 25 times as expensive as Lead-Acid. Now they are better. They hold more power, they can recharge more times, and take up less space. But they are not cheaper. Again, short of a scientific break through, it's not going to become cost effective any time soon.

There are people out there that will feel the same about all electric cars... some already do. Ten years ago the hybrid was a new & strange thing for everyday use. Electric cars are like that now. It's a choice that saves gas for others. I see no problem with that.

At the risk of repeating myself for the 3rd time.... I have no problem with electric cars. I'm all for choice. Freedom. It's what made America great. Everyone should have the choice to buy whatever legal product they wish, whether it be a electric car that can't make it to the state boarder, or a Hummer that sips a gallon every 10 miles. I don't even care if they want a socialist midget car from Chrysler or a motorized wheel chair by GM.

None of this changes what I stated before. EVs are not going to become comparatively affordable, anytime soon.

 

[top gun]

Andy;95418]Brilliant. Another idiot post that didn't address any of the points made. So your answer to a battery pack that costs $36,000 is "there were inherent problems with going to the moon".

I'm pointing out what at one point in time seems like an insurmountable hurdle isn't. Things get better things get cheaper as the tech rolls on... as will battery pack costs.

I'm seriously not even sure what you're so afraid of. If these electric cars are too expensive then they won't sell. This appears to be a free market thing. I know the Tesla is already sold out for all of 2009 and that's a very high end vehicle so there is some serious interest. And I'm sure someone will produce an electric car for half of what that costs.

Oh well that clears everything up. We'll have $20 batteries that weight 5 ounces, and have 300 mile charges, that only take 5 minutes to recharge, in no time because Top Gun says "there were inherent problems with going to the moon".

Didn't say that. I said just like with anything else the technology will only improve in both length of charge time, quickness of recharge time & weight and as it spreads to several companies and the market calls for continuing mass orders the price of batteries will go down.

I'll give you a very simple analogy... you obviously need "simple".

I remember my first cordless drill. I think it was like 3.2 volt Skill. It had really weak power even when fully charged, drained quickly and took all night to recharge.

Then I went to a 9 volt Bosh and then a 12 volt Craftsman and now an 18volt Dewalt.

The 18 volt Dewalt is about the same weight & cost about the same as my previous Bosh & Craftsman but it has unbelievable power compared to them and great battery life and charges in an hour or so not 3 or 4 hours or all night like my first Skill did.

Such is the wave of the future.

You do realize the cost to go to the moon was $135 Billion dollars, right? Gee, I think you can overcome a lot of problems when government is there to blow billions on it. If you want to spend $100K, we can make you an electric car that's pretty good too. Why can't I ever find intelligent people to talk to...

You do realize building a battery for a car here on earth isn't actually going to the moon... right?

The laws of physics do not change because you want something to work. Manufacturing things does not just magically drop the price because you have your head stuck in the clouds, or shoved so far up your politics you can't see.

Will solar panels drop in price? I hope so. But short of a break through, it won't happen. Will EVs drop in price? I hope so. But short of a break through it won't happen.

You and "your" laws of physics. You're the moron that tried to push that a car was safer just because it was a little bigger regardless if it car had no safety features or airbags. When everybody knows the whole intention of modern safety features is to overcome the laws of physics by absorption & deflection.

And sounds like you're against solar panels too... go figure! I wonder how they get the gas pump hose all the way to the space station to keep it fueled up. You're so out of it I think you just make stuff up to have something negative to say.

When Hybrids started coming to market, everyone said the price of their batteries would drop. That was 1997. Now 12 years later, Toyota discovered the opposite. The price of Nickle used in their hybrid batteries hasn't dropped, it's actually gone up. Mining Nickle is expensive, and government environmental regulations, has made opening a new mine for Nickle even more expensive. Plus the demand for Nickle has gone up. So no, the price hasn't gone down.

How many times do you need proven wrong before you give up these dumb claims?

Don't know... ain't happened yet! I do know the new Honda Insight Hybrid is being advertised as inexpensive as a regular fuel car.

My recommendation to you is this.

Put down your phone with the dial and go out and get into your 1982 Buick.

Rub your hands all over that hard steering wheel with no airbag maybe click in a cool cassette tape and reminisce about the good old days.

Maybe take a nap.

You obviously are not ready for anything even remotely modern let alone anything cutting edge.

 

[asur]

Obama forced Chysler to hook up with Fiat.
He didn't believe Chrysler or American auto companies can
create small fuel efficient cars. Basically he was saying Fiat
has technology which the US can't duplicate by themselves.
What a demeaning joke.

But the fact really is that few American's would buy a Fiat unless
they are forced to.

It isn't a free market thing either if taxpayers
fund the payroll of Chrysler.

Obama's policies only make sense for the mind-dead.

 

[top gun]

Obama forced Chysler to hook up with Fiat.
He didn't believe Chrysler or American auto companies can
create small fuel efficient cars. Basically he was saying Fiat
has technology which the US can't duplicate by themselves.
What a demeaning joke.

But the fact really is that few American's would buy a Fiat unless
they are forced to.

It isn't a free market thing either if taxpayers
fund the payroll of Chrysler.

Obama's policies only make sense for the mind-dead.

No one forced anything and you know it. You're just a very bad looser!

Chrysler needed a partner to survive period. President Obama could care less if it was Fiat. He just didn't want to see America's 3rd largest employer go under if at all possible.

This Fiat move does give Chrysler a chance though. I was reading the other day an independent industry report that pointed out how Chrysler really needs Fiat's new small engine technology said to be worth 8 to 10 Billion dollars.

Chrysler was really lacking in this department and this is a lot faster way to get into production quickly then to start from scratch on a new line of engines with all the R&D the entails.

I hope Chrysler/Fiat does well... a lot of Americans & their families depend on all those jobs!