Bomb Iran, or make them sign a treaty

[DemocratLupis]

which one???

 

[9sublime]

Neither one is productive.

Cut off all trading with them and make other heavy sanctions until they have to stop the enrichment.

But first of all get real proof that there is an actual imminent danger, not the same sort of proof as weapons of mass destruction.

 

[GringoStar]

I say bomb Israel, they HAVE Nukes, they are constantly fighting with their neighbors, and have committed more human rights violations than any country we "fight".

 

[zerorelations]

I say bomb Israel, they HAVE Nukes, they are constantly fighting with their neighbors, and have committed more human rights violations than any country we "fight".

But if we start to bomb israel, they'll use their nukes...

 

[vyo476]

I say bomb Israel, they HAVE Nukes, they are constantly fighting with their neighbors, and have committed more human rights violations than any country we "fight".

Israel is what we generally refer to as an "ally." You don't bomb allies.

They are constantly fighting with their neighbors...because their neighbors keep attacking them.

Which human rights violations would these be?

 

[ArmChair General]

Israel is what we generally refer to as an "ally." You don't bomb allies.

They are constantly fighting with their neighbors...because their neighbors keep attacking them.

Which human rights violations would these be?

Why is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian Land?

 

[vyo476]

Why is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian Land?

I'd have figured you for a fan of Israel. They do generally "kick ass" in the way that you idolize.

 

[ArmChair General]

I'd have figured you for a fan of Israel. They do generally "kick ass" in the way that you idolize.

Hardly, the IDF is propably most overrated military force on earth. The Israelis have been coasting on their reputation for a long time, but way back in Gulf War I it was clear they made their record like a Don King fighter, padding their Win column against a bunch of bums. When I saw those pitiful Arab "soldiers" crawling toward US camera crews on their hands and knees to surrender, the first thing that went through my head was, "Whoa, so that's the kind of opponent the Israelis have been showboating against? Well Hell, my high school marching band could've beaten those Arab chicken****s!"

I'm not alone in that conclusion either. One of the top US commanders in GW I called the IDF "a bunch of arrogant pricks who wouldn't last ten minutes on a European battlefield." Well, that bit about a "European battlefield" is another sad case of our NATO obsession, but the point is, the IDF doesn't deserve its rep. It did once, back in 1948 and during Suez, when it was manned by double-tough survivors of the European Jews who were determined to show up the book-nerd stereotype by kicking ass from Haifa to Damascus. Those dudes were truly tough.

But as long as the IDF was beating up on Hamas down in Gaza, it could hide its weakness most of the time. Not all of the time, pretty sloppy last year, when they let Hamas commandos tunnel right into that base, blast a tank and kidnap that dude named Shalit right while he was thinking up his next capsule review. Still, except for the occasional slip, the IDF was safe in its F-16s and Merkavas, facing Pals with nothing but rifles and old RPGs. It's easy to look tough rolling through refugee camps in the world's most heavily armored tank.

But as you may recall, those tanks got a real different reception when they chased Hezbollah's raiding party back into Lebanon after the Hezzies killed three IDF soldiers and kidnapped another two. The IDF mid-ranking commanders had to act fast because the Gaza command was taking heat for not pursuing Shalit's kidnappers fast enough. So they shouted, "Charge!" and the first Merkava steamed over the border.

Guess how far it got. Ten meters. Ten goddamn meters. Then KABOOM! A Hezbollah mine or shaped charge turned it into a very expensive oven, with four crew killed. Another IDF soldier died trying to rescue them. So within a few minutes the IDF had lost eight men. As far as I know, Hezbollah's losses were zero.

It was a good plot twist: one minute the IDF is stomping around Gaza blasting amateurs, when something taps it on the shoulder, and there's Hezbollah, looking like Godzilla in a headscarf. Pretty funny moment, something almost Abbot & Costello about it. I still laugh to myself thinking about it.

No army enjoys getting invited to a second front just when it was starting to enjoy itself on the first one. Even the Wehrmacht rank and file was bummed when they heard they were getting shipped from the beaches of the Mediterranean to Russia. And the IDF was no happier when they realized they had to quit using Gaza as a speed bag to spar with an enemy that could kill eight IDF guys in a few seconds.

Casualties. That's the key here. Every war, every army has a different population base, different demographics, and a different take on casualties. Israel's biggest weakness has always been that it hates to take casualties. You can see that in their famous prisoner exchanges, giving away hundreds of Islamic prisoners to get back one IDF guy, or in one case just the bodies of a couple of dead IDF guys. You can see it in the design of the Merkava, a brilliant design, one that gives infantry the full protection of MBT armor, but also an indication that this army is terrified its guys might get hurt.

Compare that to the Hezbollah attitude to death, which is basically extreme eagerness. Death? Hell yes, can I have seconds? The sooner the better! They have a huge death wish, so naturally their holiest places are tombs. That's why Shi'ites make that pilgrimage to Karbala, to visit the tomb of Husain. Shi'ites commemorate Husain getting himself sliced and diced for ten days every year, slashing themselves with knives and bashing themselves with chains to celebrate that glorious defeat. Ayatollah Khomeini, the biggest Shi'ite hero of the 20th century, used to preach "Every day is the anniversary of the battle, and every place is Karbala." The inspirational message was: wherever you are, go get yourself massacred. What are you doing sitting around breathing? Why ain't you out there getting slaughtered, you lazy godless bum?

And these are the same people we're picking off one by one in Iraq as well, then bragging about body counts. Still wonder why the war's going so badly?

 

[9sublime]

**** off and fight then you doss cunt, rather than sitting around complaining all the time. Go buy a gun and try and shoot some of these Iraqis you despise so much, and help 'kick ass' for the country you love that is letting yourself down so much. Or go and check yourself in for some mental asylum to wean you off the barbiturates of whatever you must be taking.

 

[The Founders Intent]

Why is Israel illegally occupying Palestinian Land?

As far as I know there is a treaty in place giving them the right to be there.

 

[The Founders Intent]

**** off and fight then you doss cunt, rather than sitting around complaining all the time. Go buy a gun and try and shoot some of these Iraqis you despise so much, and help 'kick ass' for the country you love that is letting yourself down so much. Or go and check yourself in for some mental asylum to wean you off the barbiturates of whatever you must be taking.

Nice guy.

 

[Castle]

I am more and more of the opinion that we should leave the middle east to it's own destiny - whatever that may be. Getting involved always comes down to this. UN split over solution --- more talks. Years go by and still no solution. US acts and becomes the great satan and a great punching bag for the rest.

I'm moving toward this ultimate solution. Leave the entire powder keg that is the middle east free of ANY US involvement with one stipulation. One warning and one warning only. If a country - say Iran - develops the bomb (and any fool knows they will) and one finds it's way to any of the plethora of islamic terrorist organizations who's only purpose is to destroy western culture......and said nuke mysteriously finds it's way to a US city and detonates. No UN resolutions, no decade long cocktail party world discussion, no harsh verbal condemnation. The only place you find countries that harbor and support these savages is in history books and mushroom clouds from that moment on.....period!

Fair?

-Castle

 

[vyo476]

I am more and more of the opinion that we should leave the middle east to it's own destiny - whatever that may be. Getting involved always comes down to this. UN split over solution --- more talks. Years go by and still no solution. US acts and becomes the great satan and a great punching bag for the rest.

You're forgetting one rather large thing. Oil.

 

[Castle]

You're forgetting one rather large thing. Oil.

True but oil is of little value in a radioactive wasteland.

-Castle

 

[BigRob]

I am more and more of the opinion that we should leave the middle east to it's own destiny - whatever that may be. Getting involved always comes down to this. UN split over solution --- more talks. Years go by and still no solution. US acts and becomes the great satan and a great punching bag for the rest.

I'm moving toward this ultimate solution. Leave the entire powder keg that is the middle east free of ANY US involvement with one stipulation. One warning and one warning only. If a country - say Iran - develops the bomb (and any fool knows they will) and one finds it's way to any of the plethora of islamic terrorist organizations who's only purpose is to destroy western culture......and said nuke mysteriously finds it's way to a US city and detonates. No UN resolutions, no decade long cocktail party world discussion, no harsh verbal condemnation. The only place you find countries that harbor and support these savages is in history books and mushroom clouds from that moment on.....period!

Fair?

-Castle

Why are we sitting around waiting for them to nuke us before taking any action?